Believe Big Podcast

53-Dr. Lucas Tims - Sugar and Its Role in Feeding Cancer Cells

• Ivelisse Page with Dr. Lucas Tims • Season 1 • Episode 53

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The western American diet is under fire for the amount of sugar we consume on a daily basis. Overconsumption of sugar creates all sorts of health issues for us and it is a big topic of discussion for everyone these days, especially cancer patients.

In this episode, Dr. Lucas Tims returns for a second time to talk about sugar and the role it plays in cancer. 

  • Can consuming sugar increase your risk for cancer?
  • Are there certain types of cancers that are more sensitive to sugar intake?
  • Does sugar affect cancer treatments?
  • Are artificial sweeteners beneficial to someone on a cancer journey?

Dr. Tims answers these questions and talks about how sugar consumption can lead to inflammation in the body. This inflammation can create an environment that is conducive to cancer growth.  He also discusses the importance of maintaining a healthy, balanced diet that is low in sugar and high in nutrients, sharing how he has helped his patients reduce their sugar consumption in their individual health journeys. 

You won't want to miss this enlightening episode!


Connect with Dr. Tims: https://doctorlucas.org

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Ivelisse Page:

Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to the Believe Big podcast, the show where we take a deep dive into your healing with health experts, integrative practitioners, biblical faith leaders, and cancer thrivers from around the globe. Welcome to today's episode on the Believe Big podcast. My name is Ivelisse Page, and today you are in for a treat. You have heard us speak on sugar and how it's everywhere in our diets from the obvious sources like desserts and soda to hidden sugars and processed foods. But what effect does this constant intake of sugar have on our bodies, particularly when it comes to cancer? Today we have one of our favorite integrative docs back on Dr. Lucas Tims to discuss the role that sugar plays in cancer development and progression. Dr. Lucas is an expert on naturopathic oncology and integrative cancer care. He specializes in IV vitamin C, mistletoe, ozone therapy, the immune system, you name it, and more. In addition to patient care, Dr. Lucas enjoys doing his own research, teaching, and writing for medical journals. He currently serves as the medical director at the Riordan Clinic. So welcome back again, Dr. Tims to the show.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Thanks, Ivelisse. Thanks for inviting me back. I I'll take it as a positive that we got invited back. Looking forward to discussing a different topic today with you and yeah, hopefully educating your audience a little bit.

Ivelisse Page:

We appreciate your time. I know you're a very busy man, so let's get started. I know we always ask what our favorite health tip is to those guests that come onto the show. And last time you shared about gratitude journaling and the importance of that. Do you have another favorite that you can share with us?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

I do. And this is perfect cuz this is the thing I try to do right after my gratitude journal in the morning. So we're just going in sequence of my morning routine here. Might not be for everybody, but I would really encourage people to at least try doing some cold plunging. I don't know. Have you tried cold plunges?

Ivelisse Page:

I did it once at the biohacking conference. I'm from Puerto Rico, so I love the heat. Yeah, sure. I love warm showers. I love the sauna, but I was petrified of the cold plunge, but you know what? I did it and I was so grateful that I did. I was clearer than I've ever been. I was warmer than I had been. So share with us why it's such a good practice.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Yeah it's certainly not a a pleasurable experience. And it's like that old adage like, eat the frog, right? Do something in the morning that you know is gonna be the worst thing you'll do all day. And then everything else after that is like cake. So that's the mindset there. But actually, from a science standpoint, what's happening in the body when you plunge your body into cold, and you can do it with a cold shower, but even better if you can completely submerse yourself at least up to your neck in cold water, and we're talking about maybe 40 to 50 degrees Fahrenheit water. What happens is, number one, you get a a blood constriction or blood transfer, really what happens where most of the blood flow that's on the surface of your body is going very rapidly towards your vital organs, and you get a ton of this thrust of the blood flow that goes to the vital organs, which wakes them up. It's impossible not to wake up pretty quickly when you jump in that thing, especially first thing in the morning. So it's a great great way to get things going, but the blood flow's key. And then secondly, the endorphin release is, I think what most people feel once they get over the initial shock of the cold and especially they've shown that this lasts up to two to three hours after the cold plunge. Even after you get out, that you have this release of endorphins, which are these really like positive molecules that your body makes when you work out or do other pleasurable activities. They're good things for the body and they really are like signals for healing. Lots of things to start working well in the body. And then I think just from a mental standpoint you get a little bit of a dopamine release, there's a big sense of accomplishment. It just gets the day started off on the right foot. And I would encourage everybody try it. It might not be for everybody, but I've found it to be a really nice way to start the day. And couple that with the gratitude journal. Boy, I think it's a great one, two punch.

Ivelisse Page:

I have 10 questions on the top of my head, so maybe we have you back to talk about cold plunging.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Don't claim to be an expert. I've only been doing it regularly myself for maybe two or three months.

Ivelisse Page:

I hear amazing things. My husband wants to get one. I try and dip my toes into it. Literally, like when I turn on the shower, instead of waiting till day gets hot, I get in and I just bring my legs in and I'm like, okay, one day I'll fully get under the shower head.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

You gotta grit through it in the beginning. Yeah. I won't say that it necessarily gets to the point where it's easy. That's not the point of it, honestly. But you do get used to, I think just like exercising anything, whether it's a muscle or your mind or your willpower, whatever, you get better at it.

Ivelisse Page:

Okay. Well, Thank you for sharing that. Now let's get into sugar. Can consuming too much sugar, increase the risk of developing cancer?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

I love that we're talking about this, first of all, because this is one of the questions that comes across from my patients, pretty much every patient at some point in their journey, whether it's the first question or once we start talking about diet and what should I eat? It's always about, can I eat sugar? Should I be completely no sugar? What do I need to be watching for? Do I need to read labels? Are all sugars created equally? So there's a lot of nuances to that question, right? It's not just sugar is bad, right? And so we have to have some breakdown of what we're talking about when we say the word sugar, okay?

Ivelisse Page:

Yep.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

And so sugar is essentially, it all breaks down to something called glucose, right? And that is the main fuel source that most of our cells run on. Okay? In a normal healthy cell, the cell will take in a glucose molecule, one glucose molecule, and it can make a large number of what are called A T P out of that glucose molecule, and that is in a healthy cell. And so healthy cells are very efficient about using a little bit of sugar, a little bit of glucose, and making a ton of energy out of it. Where we get into problems with cancer cells, and this is what Dr. Warburg, figured out back in the mid 19 hundreds, and what more recent work by Dr. Thomas Seyfried and a lot of other people have carried the torch on looking at cancer as a metabolic problem. They discovered that cancer cells, in order to make a very small amount of energy, require a ton of glucose. So it's the exact opposite of the way the metabolism of the cell is supposed to work. Healthy cells, little bit of sugar equals a lot of energy. Cancer cells, a lot of sugar equals a little bit of energy. Okay, so when we talk about does sugar feed cancer does excess sugar intake cause cancer? I don't think we can necessarily say that. What we can say is that once you have cancer, which metabolic syndromes that involve XX glucose can be one of the things that sets you up for cancer and too much inflammation and those types of things that lead to cells being forced into that cancer state. But once you have cancer, and especially if that cancer is in what we call a growth phase or an active growth phase, that sugar is gonna be, especially the simple sugars we're talking about junk food, sugars, right? Processed sugars, sodas, cake, cookies, donuts, that type of stuff. Those are like the most readily available fuel source that most cancer cells are gonna look for and are gonna allow the cancer cells to continue to grow at a rapid rate.

Ivelisse Page:

And so are there certain types of cancers that you have found that are particularly more sensitive to sugar intake?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Yes. So this is where the discussion gets even more complex is there's different tumor types, and then of course there's the individual person, right? There's not a one size fits all when it comes to any of this stuff unfortunately, just like we all can't wear the same shoe size, it's not all cancers or all sugars drive cancer. All cancers feed on sugar and all people with cancer, sugar's a problem. And so this is where I hate that we tend to paint things with broad strokes in terms of diet and cancer. You've got all your different camps out there, right? You've got your vegan camps, you've got your keto camps, you've got your paleo camps, you've got your fasting camp. Every camp is out there, right? And everyone seems to be pigeonholed into one or the other. But to me the necessary information goes a lot deeper in terms of where is this person coming from? What diet did they have when they got cancer? Okay. What is fueling their cancer? Because sugar is not necessarily the only fuel source for cancer. Some cancers, especially cancers of the digestive tract and organs that are involved in digestion, there's gonna be a more of a affinity towards using glucose and sugar. Also brain tumors, there's a lot more glucose receptors in the cells of our brain than other parts of our body. So there's certain tissues, parts of our anatomy that are set up for that. But say a hormone driven breast cancer, sugar can be a problem for those women, but the estrogen is gonna be more of a fuel source for that cancer than a glucose molecule is. Okay. And so it's not even necessarily just our macronutrients that we have to look at as fuel sources. So we really need to take each person as their sort of N-of-1, which is hard to do when we're trying to figure out how do we apply all these things to the masses, right? It's very hard to do that. And so each person, if you're gonna really figure out the best diet, it needs to be on an N-of-1 basis looking at their metabolic health, their metabolic history, where is their cancer? Do they have other things that may be driving their cancer, like toxins or hormone issues or gut problems? And it's not just as simple as saying if you cut off sugar, you're gonna starve the cancer.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. And that's what I love about what you do and our friends at Remission Nutrition, and it really is that N-of-1. I actually had them do a evaluation of my diet years after my cancer. You think green juice is great and shakes, protein shakes are great after you work out. And for me, I'm one of those that is very sensitive to the glucose and based on my blood work.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Right.

Ivelisse Page:

And even natural sugars I'm sensitive to, so I was making my shake and I had put pineapple in there, coconut water, spinach, all these things that I thought were great. But they said the reason why you're crashing Ivelisse is because you need to have some fat, healthy fat. And your blood work is showing your super sensitive to it. So only blueberries. Add coconut milk or almond milk in there. Add a little bit of almond butter to it. And sure enough, once I made those small tweaks, I had consistent energy. I wasn't crashing. you're absolutely right that each individual needs to be evaluated based on what their body is showing and their type of cancer and what's gonna be best for them in that season, even right of their cancer journey.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Now that said, there are some kind of general rules of thumb that we can follow.

Ivelisse Page:

I was gonna ask you what are some of those.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Most cancer patients can. They're broadly applicable and obviously, like I said, the refined added sugars, the ultra processed foods that contain a lot of simple sugars and carbohydrates, those are gonna be bad for everybody under the sun, okay? Cuz they cause a lot of oxidative stress. They are usually the types of sugars that drive up insulin, which insulin is another piece of the sugar discussion that actually should be focused on more than just glucose, cuz some kinds of sugars and carbohydrates spike insulin, some of'em don't, depends on the individual. Those types of ultra processed sugars, refined sugars, added sugars, those are the ones that really cause a large spike in our insulin, which causes a lot of inflammation and a lot of metabolic disorders. So you definitely wanna cut those foods out as much as possible. The other thing would be eating any kind of carbohydrate or sugar simply by itself, okay. You want to couple your carbohydrates, ideally with a little bit of fat and a little bit of protein. We could argue around what the perfect ratio is. I think it depends on the individual, depends on the quantity that they're eating and what time of day and lots of other things, right? It's not just as simple as this many carbs, as many protein, this many fats. I wish it were, make my job a lot easier. But you definitely don't want to be eating sugar and carbs even naturally occurring ones, like you said, with your situation, coupling it with a little bit of the other macronutrients, which slows down the digestion, which is what our digestion wants. It wants slow and low. It does not want fast. And that's where I get into a lot of problems with juicing. People are doing a massive amount of juicing because it's a huge bolus of things that the body is not designed to deal with at that rate of ingestion. Okay? It's not as nature intended, and so it puts a strain on the digestive tract. But those are two rules of thumb when it comes to sugar that everyone can subscribe to that is avoid the junk food and don't eat any kind of carbs or sugar just by itself. Don't just go and eat a piece of bread like. Have some nut butter with it, have, some regular butter on it. Something that goes with it to helps couple and slows down that digestion process, which is the way our bodies are designed to work.

Ivelisse Page:

I was also told, and can you tell me that after you eat a meal, the best thing to do is to go for a walk because it helps with your insulin levels. Is that a great little hack that someone can do after they eat?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

A hundred. A hundred percent. A lot of good things happen when you move your body within the first 20 to 30 minutes after a meal. You get you get improved blood flow, but you also get activation of muscles, which are going to, they're like sponges for a lot of the excess glucose. So you don't get as long of a glucose spike, which is in turn what spikes insulin, which again, we talked about. That's really what creates the inflammatory cascade. So the quicker your body utilizes that glucose, And the muscles are like sponges, they'll just pull up whatever the excess is. If you're activating those muscles with a walk or some type of other movement activity, you're gonna have less of a risk of having a elongated glucose spike after that meal.

Ivelisse Page:

Okay, that's great. And is that why, or do you think, is there a link between cancer and diabetes with that insulin you've been sharing about?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Some cancers, yes, not all of them, but we do see evidence and data connecting most solid tumors with metabolic disorders, not just diabetes, but we're talking about mainly diabetes type two. But yes the insulin spike which leads to prolonged insulin spikes leads to insulin resistance. And it also leads to the overabundance of fat. So prolonged insulin in the body is an obesogen. It triggers the growth of more fat cells in that part of the body wherever you're having the insulin spike, which is usually gonna be in your digestive tract, your abdomen, your midsection.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

This is why we see obesity as an independent risk factor for lots of cancers, which, usually is due to some sort of obesogen, which could be insulin resistance, could be other environmental factors. But a lot of the times, especially given the standard American diet, it is coming from that metabolic disorder origin.

Ivelisse Page:

And so does sugar consumption interact with other cancer treatments like chemotherapy and radiation or treatments that you do at the Riordan?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

That's a good question. I would say, that when patients are in a treatment phase, sometimes we refer to it as a kill phase or anything that involves chemotherapy or therapies that are going after the rapidly dividing cancer cells. So we're not talking about the cancer stem cells, we're talking about kind of the initial kill phase of cancer. Those therapies are gonna work optimally in patients where the glucose is at a very low level. Okay? So what that, what's gonna happen is it's going to, it's almost like a mouse trap effect, where if you starve those cancer cells, and again, we're not talking about every type of cancer, talking about in general, but for most cancers, when patients are going through active treatment, if we are doing some fasting or we're doing more of a ketogenic style diet where we're suppressing glucose levels in the body, That puts these cancer cells into a more vulnerable state, a more susceptible state, where those therapies are gonna have a more profound impact on them. Does that make sense?

Ivelisse Page:

Yes, it really does. And so what are some ways that you've helped your patients over the years to reduce that sugar intake for cancer prevention and for management? It's so addictive, but are there some tricks of the trade that you can share with us that you have found, have helped some?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

There, there are some tricks. Every person's a little different in terms of what works for them. At some point they have to find a restriction method. Okay? And so for some people it can be restricting the quantity. For some people, it can be restricting their feeding window. For some people it can be restricting the glucose, but maybe increasing intake of other macronutrients. So that would be more like a keto style diet or paleo diet. And then for some people are just very good at fasting. Their body just has the ability. I call them, they have a hybrid engine, their body can run on, all types of fuel sources or can run on almost nothing. And so some people don't fast very well. Some people fast, very easily. Fasting, I think is always, if you have those people that are naturally good fasters, then I think that's always the best way to go. Because it takes a lot of the other guesswork out of it. And it has a lot of other benefits in the body with the autophagy and things we can talk about in other podcasts maybe down the road. But fasting I think is always the way I try to start people, if they're having a lot of struggle and trouble with fasting, a ketogenic diet or a time restricted feeding window really can work well for some people.

Ivelisse Page:

That's great. That's great advice. I know for me, I'm okay if I can just have one of something and I'm done.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Yeah.

Ivelisse Page:

And when I was going through cancer, one of the advice that my practitioner had shared to me, which I still remember to this day, and he said, Ivelisse, you also have to live. And if your whole day is spent treating the cancer, then the cancer is winning. And what brings you joy is also important. And not that food has to be that answer. There are so many other factors that I use to bring me joy. One of my treats is a homemade chocolate chip cookie, so once a week when I went to Whole Foods, they had these great chocolate chip cookies that they make, and they're amazing, good ingredients, and I would just have one. I'd finish shopping and that was like my treat for the week, and it was just, all that I needed. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be an all or nothing or it doesn't have to be never again. But there are ways that you can do things that still bring you joy but that aren't harmful, and while you're going through something hard.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Hundred percent, and I think, I'm glad you brought that up, cuz that is something that I tell most of my patients is that, look, I don't expect you to have a perfect diet, nobody does as far as I'm concerned, and you still have to live your life. And if you're not enjoying your days and it's all just hard work, then what's the point? So that 80 20 rule or 90 10, everyone kind, has a different version of that. However, you break it down, if it's one or two meals or one or two little cheats a week, is that gonna completely blow up the whole plan and the approach? No. But if it's a daily thing, it's hard to mitigate that. But most people, and I think it'd be interesting to see, hear your your take on this. I think most people, when they start cutting out the junk food, I think most people know what I mean when I say junk food. They start craving that stuff less.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

It does get to the point where yeah, just that one time a week is like enough to kind of give them that dopamine release or whatever it is they gain from that and satiate them versus if they look back, maybe over the years leading up to their cancer, it was more of a daily thing.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

And then managing stress too. Cause a lot of people reach for those foods when they're in a stress state. And so obviously we're addressing the stress management piece which makes the cravings and the hunger for those types of foods a little easier too.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. And so talk to us about sugar-free. I know. know, Many people think it was sugar free. And so can you share why artificial sweeteners like aspartame, saccharin,sucralose have a negative impact on health?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

It's an interesting conversation to have. I will say that, if you look at across the board with the studies that have been done, granted a lot of them have been industry funded, but most of the studies show that, artificial sweeteners, it depends on what outcome you're looking at. So we're talking specifically about cancer. Yes. But if you're looking at obesity and you're looking at gut health and different inflammation marks, things like that, Those are all maybe different discussions, but overall, there hasn't been a lot of studies showing that artificial sweeteners increase your risk of cancer. Okay. We do have a few of them. There's some that are specific with things like aspartame, which is what's used in a lot of diet sodas, where actually the effects of these artificial sweeteners while you're lowering the glucose in the body, you're having a profound effect on the gut microbiome. Okay. And these bacteria that make up most of our body actually we're just big condominiums for bacteria. I know it sounds gross, but like only 10% of us is human. The rest is all like bacteria and viruses and fungus and parasites. But the health of those microbes is really our health. And these artificial sweeteners, for the most part have been connected with over time creating a landscape of these microbes that lead to a lot of our chronic diseases. Okay? And and it wipes out or preferentially, selects out the microbes that help us to maintain a good immune system, to decrease inflammation, to help with proper digestion, help with our mood. Our gut has a huge effect on our brain and our mood. And there have been some studies connecting long-term ingestion of artificial sweeteners with an increased risk of depression, increased risk of maybe cognitive early cognitive decline. And some, especially, for our conversation today, some brain tumors. The research is not definitive by any means. But I would say the biggest connection we know now is that long-term use of these artificial sweeteners, and I'm talking mostly about aspartame, sucralose, some of the sugar alcohols. They have a profound impact on our gut health, our gut microbiome, which has a butterfly effect on everything in our body.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. And you said something about sugar alcohols. What about like the xylitol? I heard some things lately that it was just showing how bad that was and it's in so many health foods and other things. What is your take on those sugar alcohols?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

Yeah, xylitol and I think specifically erythritol was one that was in the news recently. We had a ton of patients asking, what's your take on this? What do I do with this information? I've been using this as a substitute. None of the studies that have been done to date are perfect studies. Okay? You can always you'll find some people out there that are poking holes in the flaws of the study, the design, the interpretation, who funded the studies. And so there's always those pieces of the conversation. But if you just look at the science again, there is a connection between these, even the alcohol sugars, the erythritol xylitol, having an impact on our gut microbiome. And you can argue whether, the total net result of that is good or bad. There's arguments on both sides, but we know that it is having a profound effect on our microbiome. That may be beneficial for some people that may be beneficial for some types of cancer. That may be beneficial for some people with some types of cancers in some situations. I don't wanna make people's head spin with all these different potential hypotheticals, but it really is not just as simple as saying these things are good or bad.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. I really just really need to be evaluated personally so that you can be a peace to know what does your body need.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

And that's where I, that's where I ended up ending the conversation with most people is that, we have the ability to look at the gut breakdown of most people. We have the ability to look at certain metabolic signals in terms of your insulin, in terms of inflammation, markers, and even look at, do you have enough healthy bacteria? Do you have an overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria? Do you have overgrowth of yeast and fungus in your gut? And we can track these linearly in a way where, if people are using a lot of these artificial sweeteners, we can see if they're having these types of negative or positive effects on their gut microbiome. And to me, that's where we can give people a little bit more individualized advice on what might be helping them or not.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. And what about sugars like monkfruit, date sugar, stevia?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

The evidence is pretty solid that those are, are pretty much just beneficial. Okay. Now you can overdo anything. But I do try to steer people, my patients mostly towards using stevia. The whole stevia extract. There's more heavily processed forms of stevia, so you have to watch out for that. But if you can get stevia in the raw type stuff or monk fruit, date powder, stuff like that, there are some things that are generally pretty safe. Even organic maple syrup, local organic honey. Again, as long as you're not taking those sugars in as a single source of nutrition and they're coupled together in a proper balance with proteins and fats and not over consumed, that's where I think most people should be focusing in terms of things that they need to sweeten foods or recipes or desserts.

Ivelisse Page:

That's great. And in closing, is there anything else that you'd like to add about sugar that I did not ask?

Dr. Lucas Tims:

I would say that most people when they first enter that cancer journey, right? That a lot of the information that's out there when they first start reading about how can they change their diet and even, I'm guilty of this too, is get off of sugar, right? And so they sometimes take that very literally and they stop eating everything that has any sort of sugar or carbohydrate under the sun. And then we see them and they've lost 40 pounds. They've lost a lot of muscle mass. They've become very weakened. And so before you go doing anything super restrictive, even when it comes to sugar, you should really work with somebody and you should really understand what the proper way to implement a diet strategy for your type of cancer, for your situation is before you go really extreme, because we see some people that really shoot themselves in the foot and they've lost a lot of their muscle mass and are severely malnourished as a byproduct of trying to cut out every single sugar under the sun. So that would be my kind of one thing I'd part with today is just, really there are people out here that can help you navigate this and stay away from the extreme opinions.

Ivelisse Page:

Thank you. That's great advice. Thank you so much for joining us today and always being so willing to give of your time to help our listeners out.

Dr. Lucas Tims:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Ivelisse Page:

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