Believe Big Podcast

Summer Replay-36-Jen Nolan - Tips to Handle Treatments & Make Them More Effective

• Ivelisse Page & Jen Nolan • Season 1 • Episode 36

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A cancering journey can be a tough road.  Conventional treatments like chemotherapy and radiation can take a toll on a patient mentally, emotionally and physically.  But, there are some things that can be done to help alleviate some of the side-effects and even enhance the treatments!

Join me today as I speak with Jen Nolan, owner and lead oncology nutrition consultant with Remission Nutrition.  Jen has a lot of fascinating information about practical things a cancering patient can do the benefit their treatment plan and even some information for anyone looking to improve their health through food.

Connect with Jen at Remission Nutrition:
https://www.remissionnutrition.com/

Suggested Resources:

Suggestions for snacks to take on a trip or to the hospital:

  • grain-free, low-carb granola
  • jar/carton unsweetened nut milk or coconut milk
  • fresh berries
  • hard boiled eggs
  • egg salad with avocado mayo and crunchy veggies (think celery) or canned tuna
  • grass fed meat sticks
  • green apple slices and nut butter (sugar-free nut butter packets are available)
  • 1/2 avocado with salt and lemon/lime juice (eat with a spoon)
  • macadamia nut hummus with veggies (celery, cucumber, bell pepper, etc.). 
  • Jen's Go-To Travel snack:  In a "dry" jar combine ground flax, hemp hearts, pumpkin seeds, walnuts, cinnamon, coconut flakes, blueberries.  In a "wet" jar bring a nut milk.  Pour milk into the "dry" jar and eat with a spoon.

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Ivelisse Page:

Welcome to today's episode on the Believe Big Podcast. My name is Ivelisse Page and I am so honored to be able to spend this time with you. Are you or someone you know going through a cancering process and need tools on how to handle treatments or how to make them more effective? Well, you're at the right place. My guest today is Jen Nolan, who is the owner and lead oncology nutrition consultant for Remission Nutrition. Jen received her undergraduate degree in food science, human nutrition, and dietetics from Colorado State University. Woohoo! Yay CSU! She holds a Master's degree in Holistic Nutrition, is a certified nutrition genome practitioner. And has her 250 hour Oncology nutrition consulting certification in the field of oncology nutrition. Her knowledge of metabolic nutrition is unsurpassed in the field, and she is also a certified Metabolic Balance coach, which is a sophisticated nutrition system based on client's blood values and unique health profile that originated in Munich, Germany. Wow, Jen! Welcome to the show!

Jen Nolan:

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Ivelisse Page:

I am always curious as to each person's favorite health tip, and I'm sure our listeners would love to know yours. Can you share one with us?

Jen Nolan:

Absolutely. it's interesting because I was thinking about all these things like saunas and all the healthy foods and all these things, and it came down to the fact that for me, my biggest health tip is really it's joy and play. I feel the most nourished and filled up after I've been out for a mountain bike ride in the woods, in nature, or I love to roller skate. So I like to go to the beach and roller skate. So that's another thing. It's just about being with people and smiling and laughing and having fun in nature.

Ivelisse Page:

That's a great one. I don't think we realize the importance of being around other people, community being outside and doing something that you enjoy. So that's a great tip. Believe Big has been working with Remission Nutrition for many years. And what I love most about what you all do is that you really alleviate the stress a patient or your clients feel about what they should be eating and when. For those that haven't heard about Remission Nutrition, can you share with us what a person can expect when they connect with you?

Jen Nolan:

Yeah, you bet. We start with, mostly right now, one-on-one consultations, which is really lovely because we really do dive deep into the individual's case and everyone is so unique. Everyone's situation is so unique. A lot of different treatment plans and schedules and all of those things, so that's what we do. We really like to get in and individualize each plan. So our first consultation is pretty lengthy, it's about two hours with our consultant. And then we try to do follow up sessions as long as people are able. We really hope that people can do follow ups because that's where we download a lot of information and then it's oh geez, that's a lot of information and how do we take it step by step and make it really realistic for them? So that's what we do. We do zoom calls and we work with people all over, so not just locally, all over the country and even worldwide, which is pretty special. I talk about food a lot, of course, or we do, but a lot of the time, it's oh wait, did we even talk about food? Cuz we talk a lot about the mental, emotional wellbeing and just really support everybody, wherever they are.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. And I love that's what you guys do. You really do an integrative approach and not just basic nutrition. And also can you share with those listening cuz what you do is very different than what people may find in a hospital. What is the difference between what you guys do at Remission Nutrition versus someone going to visit their nutritionist, at a hospital.

Jen Nolan:

Yeah, I mean, I have training in both, so that's been really helpful for me to understand what clients are seeing or hearing when they're at the hospital. I mean, the most common thing that I hear is my doctor told me to eat whatever I want. And while the dieticians at the hospital probably aren't saying that, it's very like calorie focused as opposed to nutrient density and really figuring out how we can best support their body during the treatment rather than just don't lose weight, which is what they hear a lot. So we really wanna dig in and go, how can we support you as you're going through treatment and before and after. So it's utilizing, I would say, food is medicine a little bit more than just food is calories.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. that's a great explanation. We had Jess Kelley on the show a few months ago, and to talk about oncology nutrition and the many different diets that you all help patients and clients with. But today, we wanted to zero in on tips that you share on how to make treatments more effective and also how to offset the negative side effects of treatments. So, I know you have many tools and hacks, but let's focus first on the top things that you share with patients on how to make their treatments more effective. What would you say is the first thing?

Jen Nolan:

I think my number one favorite if people are up for it, is to utilize fasting for treatment, which can sound scary, especially if somebody is brand new to fasting. So I might stairstep them into that idea a little bit. But I see if there's anything that I see right there in front of me as something that is really working, it's fasting for treatment and so that's cool that we can take away food while somebody is going through treatment, maybe the day before, day of and the day after, and maybe it's not all food. Maybe we use some broths and things like that. It really depends on the person. But, it seems to really work. And so I love that. I love that I can see somebody like, wow, I wasn't super nauseous, I wasn't throwing up. I didn't have diarrhea or constipation, or whatever. And then they're able to eat. So what oftentimes happens is during treatment, they're trying to force down food and they feel like junk. And so it's like we talk about it like with animals when they're ill. They don't eat. And so if we can do that in a really safe way, most important is that people still really load up on hydration and electrolytes and things like that. And maybe have a backup plan because that's one thing that can happen if somebody goes to their treatment and they sit down and they go downhill. They get dizzier, they just feel yucky. And the nurses are like, here, eat this. Instead, they're like, nope, I've got this in my bag. So it's like a little healthier backup plan with them. So we really try to set people up for success in that world. And I don't ever want people to feel bad. It's oh, I only made it to however many hours, 24 hours, or, that's great, But if we can utilize fasting, that's my numero uno and we really help people do it.

Ivelisse Page:

And I love that you do it step by step, but I love too that it makes the side effects less, but I also heard that it helps make the treatments more effective. Why is that?

Jen Nolan:

Yes, it can. And there is some really great res research out there that shows even on humans, that shows that it could help the efficacy of the treatment. I liken it to a one two punch a little bit. So if you take away cancer's fuel, then it gets a little weary, like the cancer cells get a little bit tired and then the treatment can come in and do that punch. So that's another reason in my mind, in a really simplified way of explaining why that might work. And so it just makes the cancer cells maybe more vulnerable and they can get hit by that treatment.

Ivelisse Page:

That's great, so two benefits one, it could make the treatments more effective and it would also mitigate the nausea and the other symptoms that people experience while they're going through that. That's fantastic. What would be your next tip?

Jen Nolan:

Oftentimes people come to me and they are obviously not very happy about say, a diagnosis, but also sometimes very angry, which is also understandable. And they use a lot of terminology like war and fighting and arsenal and poison and toxins. And they're like, I don't wanna have that toxic stuff in my body. And so I talk to them about how we can reframe the thought process and the language used around the treatment. And so I have a really lovely friend of mine right now is going through a cancer journey, and he's like, wait, what do we call it again? And I'm like, we call it the healing love potion. It is our healing love potion, and we're gonna visualize it going in and doing its job, and we're gonna visualize it leaving the body. And that is so easy to stand over here and say, but it can really help. And I feel that so strongly that the power of intention, the power of the language brings just a positive energy to us.

Ivelisse Page:

Definitely. I've heard, Dr. Caroline Leaf talk a lot about the brain and how it can build branches when you're thinking of negative things versus positive things and how they get replaced and, it's just amazing. It's amazing. I really, truly believe that. And on the opposite side too, when I was doing my mistletoe injections during my cancer battle, as the mistletoe was going in, as I was injecting it, I visualized like little pac-men attacking all the cancer and eating all the cancer cells up. I literally did. And I just feel like anything that you can do to help your body heal, is so important. And so I truly believe that the mind is super powerful.

Jen Nolan:

I agree.

Ivelisse Page:

All right. And what about from a dietary perspective?

Jen Nolan:

While we do utilize various dietary plans with what we do, everyone's different. Oftentimes when somebody especially is undergoing treatment, we will utilize a ketogenic diet and there's different levels of ketosis, but getting somebody in more of a therapeutic level of ketosis can be quite helpful. And I believe the reason why that's so helpful is because first of all, it can help with some side effects and it can help hopefully the efficacy of the treatment for the similar reason that fasting can work. So again, it's sort of that one two punch. It's taking out that primary fuel source that cancer cells love and takes them away, and so that's part of it. I also believe that it can help take down inflammation. And if we don't have a lot of inflammation in the body, then cancer isn't as happy. Cancer loves an inflammatory environment. So there's several reasons why that ketogenic diet can be helpful. It also might make fasting a little bit easier because if you're already in ketosis, then you're not on that blood sugar roller coaster and you might be able to fast a little more easily. So it just sets you up for success with that as well.

Ivelisse Page:

And those who aren't familiar with a ketogenic diet, what are some of the foods that you avoid or that you promote in a ketogenic diet for treatment?

Jen Nolan:

I think this is a good question right now because I feel like for those that aren't familiar with the ketogenic diet, but might be, now that we've said the word right, they might start seeing all of these products out there that are keto this, keto that, and it basically means that it's a high fat, and it's very fad like right now, so there's a lot of junk food keto things out there. So we have to be really careful cuz we don't want to use processed foods. So I'm more of a whole foods based ketogenic diet. So again, it's low carbohydrate because carbohydrates can turn to sugar in the body, which sugar is a primary fuel source for cancer cells. So we take that away, but we have to put something back in. We utilize fat and I love things like olive oil and really healthy sources of fat, avocados, avocado oil, nuts and seeds, coconut, things like that rather than a lot of the animal based fats, people tend to feel a little bit better. And then as a nutritionist, of course, I like it when people can eat as many vegetables as possible, high fiber vegetables that help with digestion and all those things. So hopefully that answers your question. It's basically utilizing fat and fat is very caloric, which is cool too. So that can help if somebody is starting to lose weight and things like that.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah, I agree. And it's similar to gluten-free products or vegan products. If it's not a Whole Foods based, then you're eating a lot of preservatives or added sugars or corn fillers and things like that are not good for you. I love that you said that. You mentioned losing weight, and I think that is a big issue for many patients when they're going through treatment. What do you recommend for patients to gain that weight back in a healthy way without using things like Ensure, which are so filled with chemicals and so bad for you?

Jen Nolan:

I tell the story all the time that when I was in school back at CSU, they did a taste test for the budding nutritionist for Ensure. I think it was Ensure at the time, testing the different flavors, the chocolate or the strawberry, or the vanilla, and I was so sad. So anyway, you're right. And what we try to do is encourage, first of all, protein is quite important. So what are different forms of protein that we can get into the body? There's different protein powders out there. I like to do Food First as much as possible, rather than powders because I feel like the body has a better chance of probably digesting it. But we have a lot of different tricks around that. Different shakes that are like weight gain shakes, broths are really helpful, like bone broths and things. I also really think it's so important to use the muscles. So people that are, say they're having fatigue, a lot of people are when they're going through treatment, we say using your muscles can help with fatigue so it can help even when people don't wanna do anything, right? If they can get outside for a quick walk, little bit of sunshine or use some light hand weights that can help. Same thing with muscles. It's sort of that saying, if you don't use it, you lose. It's just like that, and muscle weighs more than fat. So if we can utilize the muscles, build them up, then weight can go up. It's a challenge for sure, because a lot of times appetite is low and all of the things that we're always trying to go here, take this ginger to help your appetite and things like that.

Ivelisse Page:

I think that's really valuable to patients to understand and, is there something simple? I know when I was going through my treatments, my exercise was walking to the mailbox and back. I was just so wiped out. Is there a simple exercise that you think will build muscle that patients could do or something that they could look into. I know like they have those little stretch bands that my husband travels with, that could be gentle enough for someone going through treatment, but that can build muscle. What would you recommend?

Jen Nolan:

I love the little, resistance bands. Those are nice. Or the really lightweights, the little hand weights. And if somebody's sitting, because they're so tired and they're sitting there, they might be able to use those hand weights. Have a couple of sets around in different spots where they tend to hang out. That can be helpful. The other thing is if you're making tea and you're waiting for the tea water to boil, then stand against either the wall or the countertop and do some very gentle pushups if you're able. Of course not everybody's able, depending on certain things, but push pushups. I also love to use step-ups. If you have a couple of stairs and you have a railing, that's awesome too because you can hold onto the railing. You step up, you step down a couple times and switch legs and that can help cuz those bigger muscles in your legs are really important. It's utilizing your muscles in a gentle way.

Ivelisse Page:

Love it. I could have done that. You mentioned the shakes and the powders and things, and so I know we're gonna get questions about that. Might you be able to share your favorite one that we can put in the show notes for people to download and to try at home?

Jen Nolan:

You bet. So Nutiva actually is a brand that has a hemp protein powder. So that's nice because a lot of people are looking for more sort of plant sources and that's fine. It's not gonna pack as much of a punch as say, an animal based protein powder. I use a couple and I do use more of a bone broth powder for some people, but I don't use it all the time, every day, and so I just pepper that in. There's also another company that's doing more of this amino acid. It's Perfect Aminos, and I've been playing with that a little bit because what's nice about it is that it doesn't raise blood sugar. It doesn't add calories is the only thing, but you would add that to water and drink it. And it's flavored probably not the most amazing thing. So that's a little bit tricky. But it can really help if we see somebody's labs looking pretty ugly in terms of like their protein levels are really low and things like that. And they don't have a big appetite, then that product can help. It gives them the amino acids their bodies need, and it can help with hydration, so they're not ingesting a bunch of calories. So there's a ton of different things, in fact, in the Metabolic Approach to Cancer there's also that weight gain shake, and that's a great recipe that helps with a lot of different things. So not just gaining weight. So a lot of gut health things. And so that's a good recipe. I don't use as much whey protein powder anymore. I prefer more of bone broth protein powder. So I believe the one that I have right now is probably from Designs for Health, but there's a couple, I'm just really careful. I don't use any of the like vanilla or chocolate flavors personally because they're so strong and they don't have sugar probably, but they use like some of the alternative sweeteners and it's too much and it tends to be a little bit easier just to put some frozen berries and taste that.

Ivelisse Page:

I found that to be with some of them that makes it sweeter. But I'm very sensitive to the sugar. I love the Four Sigmatic one that has the mushrooms and things in it. And it has the cacao, a coco flavor. And I just put that with blueberries and almond milk and it's delicious and it has no sugar. So I really love that one too. But I'll put your recommendations in the show notes. And again, these are just ideas and thoughts and what I wanna make sure I continue to impress upon those that are hearing is that you really need to speak to someone who is knowledgeable for your specific situation. Everybody's body is different and responds differently and may need different things. And so that's why I'm so grateful for what you guys do at Remission Nutrition that really individualizes a plan based on where someone is in their treatment process, whether they're a healthy person without cancer or one with a cancering process. So, making sure everyone realizes these are just suggestions. It's not medical advice at any form, or treatment advice. It's really things to open up your mind and your thoughts to what else is out there that could be used. You mentioned the people's blood counts and things that could be low because of the negative side effects of treatments. What about low blood counts? What have you done for that?

Jen Nolan:

That seems to be a pretty common thing. So whenever somebody goes in to get their blood work done right before treatment, it's often to look at those numbers to see how their body is holding up from the last treatment or the last treatments. And so they're looking at those labs and they're like, okay, yes, we can go ahead and do treatment. And so one of those, the cluster of numbers oftentimes are those blood counts. So we'll look at say, white blood cell counts, red blood cell counts, platelet counts, things like that. And we have some really nice, non-invasive things that we can utilize that can help. So one of my favorites is for platelets. We will use sesame oil and we can use sesame oil also as a fat, so that's cool, right? It's a food, it's gonna get some calories in. But if they could do even a tablespoon a day of sesame oil in their diet, that can raise platelets. It can drive platelet production up. So that's really neat. And so if platelets are high, we don't wanna utilize that, right? There's a really nice sort of sweet spot with platelets, but we definitely don't want them too low. And so we'll use sesame oil in food and I like to get the raw, organic sesame oil for this, not the smoked or toasted sesame oil. I keep it in the fridge. I have people not cook with it, cuz that makes me a little bit nervous because it's a seed oil and you don't want it to be cooked in heat. And you can also use it topically. So you can put it on elbows, knees, things like that. And that can drive platelets, so that's one thing. For white blood cell counts, I have my little favorite trick of taking a little jar of coconut oil, like at the tiniest mason jar you can get, put coconut oil in it and then take about four or or six drops of high quality eucalyptus oil and mix it up really well. And then you take it and dab it under your nose throughout the day. Kind of cool, you don't have to ingest anything. And so that can help with platelets. There's other things that people can utilize, like certain types of mushrooms for white blood cells too. But unless they're working with a naturopathic oncologist and they're being monitored, I don't wanna add a bunch of supplements to their plan. I'd like to use these more non-invasive things that feel really good to the person.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. I know that patients appreciate that a lot. not having to add one more thing to their protocol. What about if red blood cell counts are high?

Jen Nolan:

So I call it, blood building food. And I know that might sound gross, but if your blood cells are low, you can take in some blood building foods. And again, this is very individualized depending on the person. But if I can get somebody to utilize some of organ meat, and I usually watch for facial expressions when I say certain things like sardines or organ meats. And then I go a different direction if I get the wrong face, but, there's some amazing blends out there. So there's um, oh, what's it called? I forget the name of the company. It's called Force of Nature, and they're pretty accessible, so you can order'em online, but they're these meat blends, so they have one that's like a bison mixed with organ meats. And it's cool because you can help your red blood cell counts, and you can get protein in. And, you cannot taste the organ meats because it's all blended together. So I happen to like organ meats, so you know somebody might not love it, but I like to just make meatballs out of it or, put it in like a lettuce wrap or something like that so you don't have as much of the flavor, mask the flavor with a yummy sauce or something. And that can really help drive up red blood cells.

Ivelisse Page:

I'm gonna try it. I'll do a post on social about it because I hear all the time people are saying that the nutrients and the things that are in those organ meats, even just a small bit each day can be so beneficial to you. Although I love sardines, I didn't know that was considered an organ meat.

Jen Nolan:

It's not, I just said that because I watch for faces, so I do recommend. But I'll tell you what I did just get was cod liver in a can. It's Icelandic cod liver, so that is a canned kind of organ. And it was a little bit harder for me than actual bison or something like that.

Ivelisse Page:

Here in Colorado that's pretty accessible. We'll definitely look into those and we'll put that company's information in the show notes as well for people that would like to check it out. You touched on it a little bit with fasting, but what can a person do to mitigate nausea and the lack of appetite?

Jen Nolan:

Which is quite common. I have so many different things. So nausea can come from obviously the treatment and sometimes from smells. So if somebody else is cooking in the kitchen and they're hanging out on the couch and the smell comes through and they're like, oh, I can't, I'm not gonna really eat that now. Because they smell it and that causes nausea. So I have had people, this is one of my favorites, if they have a grill with a side burner and as long as it's not-2 below or something to go outside and cook sometimes, some things that might be a little bit too fragrant for the inside of the house. So just make it outside or even sometimes in an instant pot, cuz that sort of contains the smells a little bit. So that's one thing. Ginger is a miracle food. I truly believe. It can help with so many different things. Stomach upset, nausea, even circulation, which is crazy so it can stimulate circulation, which is very important for us. So, ginger is one of my faves, and I will take a lemon juice, just some fresh lemon juice or a little lemon rind, put it into a mug, or even one of those teapots that you can steep right in with loose tea. I'll add chunks of ginger to that. And I just let it steep for a while. If people want it to be more room temperature or cooler, they can make a really concentrated bit and then add that to their water sometimes. So that can really help throughout the day. But ginger and a lot of different things can help. And then appetite, another favorite is fennel. So you can chew on the little fennel seeds and that can help stimulate appetite. and you can use fennel in cooking, which is, it's a lovely food. So that's another thing that can stimulate appetite.

Ivelisse Page:

These are great tips. I'm so excited to hear them all. You also help patients to take care of their liver, why is that important and what do you recommend?

Jen Nolan:

Another one of the numbers or cluster of lab values that the doctors are watching are the liver enzymes. And that's important because the liver gets hammered, let's say during treatment or can. And so we always call it liver love. What are the things that we can do to really love the liver? And one of my favorites is things that are bitter. So bitter foods, they stimulate the liver to detox so that liver is in charge of detoxing. And if we can give it foods that might stimulate detox, that's a great thing. So I love bitter foods. Like I was saying, dandelion greens are really now oddly available in the stores, so it's become a big thing. So you can buy them and you can cook with them like you would spinach. You can add them to salads, little snips, they're pretty bitter. So I also love to make pesto with them. I cut the pesto, I'll do half and half with fresh basil and it's delicious. I'll do a dairy free pesto. I might use a little bit of a pecorino cheese just to give it that flavor. Lemon, garlic, salt, pepper, things like that, and tons of olive oil. It's delicious. It would mask maybe the flavor of liver.

Ivelisse Page:

That does sound delicious. Can you send me that recipe too? Since we are almost outta time, I can't even believe it, I would love to hear from you if you could share one aspect of nutrition that everyone should and can incorporate into their diet.

Jen Nolan:

I think that eating Whole Foods, that's a big one, right? But if there were one thing, and again, it depends on the person and where they are when they come, but sugar is number one, I think. It's cutting out sugar, especially the processed sugars and things like that. That's really in my mind, very important. We didn't talk about the terrains, but I know you have a lot in the various podcasts, but it hits on all of the terrains. So if you can take that one thing out, and it's very addictive and it's very hard, but we support people doing that all the time. And that's my biggie. It's just take out the sugar.

Ivelisse Page:

Do you have any tips on how to do that?

Jen Nolan:

Oftentimes with the power of threes there's 21 day fix. So it's a three weeks fix. Pull it out, cleanse from it. And that doesn't mean you do all the things at once, but if you can go, okay, I'm just gonna take out sugar, awesome, for 21 days. The chances of you wanting it after the 21 days are pretty low. Everybody's has a different sensitivity to it. So some people are like, I can never touch that again, or it just opens up the floodgates. Some people are like, I can have that little treat once in a while and I'm cool. So, again, everybody's different. But if somebody can do a 21 day sort of sugar fix, it's pretty great.

Ivelisse Page:

And I've heard some great things about monk fruit, so is that something you should still eliminate too, or is that something that you could substitute as your cleansing or moving forward in your health?

Jen Nolan:

Again, that's an individual question or answer for each client because some people I find that it can just perpetuate more cravings. And so while monk fruit can be okay. It might not raise somebody's blood sugar, it depends on the person, are they super addicted to sugar? If somebody's super addicted to sugar, I have had a lot of success with clients using hypnosis, and that's interesting. It's just like any addiction, right? Where hypnosis can really be helpful in getting it out. If somebody's really addicted. I'm careful with those alternative sweeteners.

Ivelisse Page:

That's great advice. As we close the show, is there anything else that you would like to add that I didn't ask you that you think would be helpful to know in regards to helping, to mitigate the side effects of treatments?

Jen Nolan:

I mean, back to the fasting piece, if you're going to do it, get the support and don't just jump into it. Hydration is so important, and I find that a lot of our clients, they're doing all of these things. They're taking the supplements, they're eating the right foods, and they're drinking half or maybe even less of what their body needs. It's one of the really interesting parts. It's like the low hanging fruit. There's this foundational piece that is missed, a lot so it can really help. It can help with cravings, it can help with side effects. Drink water. Drink water. Stay hydrated.

Ivelisse Page:

How much water should one drink?

Jen Nolan:

I usually say half of your body weight in ounces per day of water. Herbal tea counts, caffeinated beverages do not. And if somebody's doing a lot of sauna-ing and things like that, they need to have more.

Ivelisse Page:

Jen, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for sharing all these incredible tools and tips that I know everyone listening will really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. So thank you so much.

Jen Nolan:

Thank you. And I just have to say I appreciate the work you do, all of you at Believe Big. It's really important and beautiful, and we appreciate you.

Ivelisse Page:

Oh, thanks Jen. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support our podcast, please subscribe and share it with others. Be sure to visit believebig.org to access the show notes and discover our bonus content. Thanks again and keep believing big!