Believe Big Podcast

54-Kim Hamer - 100 Acts of Love

• Ivelisse Page & Kim Hamer • Season 1 • Episode 54

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This is a very special episode for EVERYONE.   

What do you do when your family member, your friend, your co-worker, your neighbor is diagnosed with cancer or is facing a difficult crisis?

Have you ever said to that person you care about, "if you need anything, let me know"?  But you really didn't know what they needed.  You didn't really know what you could do for them, but you wanted to offer your care, support and love in their time of need.

Kim Hamer has been there on both sides experiencing the need for practical help and  later supporting a person in her life who was in crisis.   She's written a pragmatic book as an amazing guide for anyone who wants to truly help and love a person dealing with challenging circumstances.  Kim exudes warmth and light in this podcast interview as she shares several key things she learned during her husband's cancer journey and ultimately his death. 

Connect with Kim on her website:
https://www.100actsoflove.com/

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Ivelisse Page:

Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to the Believe Big podcast, the show where we take a deep dive into your healing with health experts, integrative practitioners, biblical faith leaders, and cancer thrivers from around the globe. Welcome to today's episode on the Believe Big podcast. My name is Ivelisse Page and it's an honor to spend this time with you. Today's topic is one that everyone needs to hear, five ways to help a friend with cancer with my guest, Kim Hamer. On April 16th, 2009, Kim watched her 44 year old husband take his last breath. During his illness and after his death, she was amazed by the helpful ways her coworkers, bosses, friends, and family supported them. She is the author of 100 Acts of Love, A Girlfriend's Guide to Loving Your Friend Through Cancer or Loss. It's an easy to read book, filled with a hundred practical, quick and effective ways to support an employee, friend, or coworker. She's an HR consultant and sought after public speaker who lives in Los Angeles where she tries not to bother her relatively well-behaved college-aged children. I love that. Welcome Kim, to the show.

Kim Hamer:

Thank you so much, Ivelisse. It's nice to be here.

Ivelisse Page:

We always like to learn from our guests what their favorite health tip is. Are you able to share one with us?

Kim Hamer:

I am. And it's one that people have heard before and I highly encourage people do it, and that is meditating. I am a daily meditator. I meditate every day. I have been doing so for the last 10 years of my life. I never thought I would ever say that because I tried meditation off and on over and over again. This sort of big crisis happened in my life and I needed to quiet my brain, although that's what I thought meditation was gonna be, it wasn't that. And so now it is a part of my daily life, and I know that people say they can't meditate because they're under the illusion that their brains are supposed to be quiet and that is absolutely not true. Sometimes I have massive monkey brain where I am sitting for 20 minutes. I will set my timer for 20 minutes and two minutes in I'll be like, it's gotta be close to 20 and it'll be, oh, 17 more minutes left. And then sometimes my brain quiets. But I think it's really about the discipline of sitting for 20 minutes and letting the thoughts go through your brain and not letting them get stuck in your brain. And so that's why I am a meditator, really helps my life, helps me calm down, helps me put a breath between me and whatever is happening, which is often very important.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. I love that. And I like that you also shared that it doesn't mean that your brain has to be completely quiet, and I think that is hard for some people. So that's really great to know so that people can start to work on that practice daily. It is such a huge healing tool. So thank you for sharing that with us. Before we get into the five ways to help a friend with cancer can you share with us why you think people get stuck when offering to help friends with cancer?

Kim Hamer:

I think friends, coworkers, doesn't even really matter. I think what happens is we make it about ourselves. We don't mean to, but we make it about ourselves. And so we worry about saying the wrong thing. We worry about doing something that's gonna cause more pain, and because of that, we get tongue tied. We forget that the real purpose of helping and saying the right thing is to bring someone comfort. And it's to say to them, and really the purpose of it is to say, I see you. I see this journey, and it stinks. I think the other reason why it's hard is because you do, you have to step into it with them for a moment, and that's really painful. I just had a conversation this morning where I was talking about how sometimes I don't like to share that I'm a widow. And oftentimes I will share it as part of a story, so I'll approach it with, okay, I'm gonna tell you something. It's gonna be shocking, but I need to tell you because it's part of the story. But don't be shocked. Okay? So that's how I preface it. And then I go, I'm a widow. And then I try to move on quickly with my story. And what I realized a couple years ago is I need to give people a moment. And when they hear it, I look very young and when they hear it, they're in shock. And what I realize is sometimes it's hard for me to connect in with their pain about my situation. And I think sometimes that happens with us when we care about someone, a great deal, a good friend, and they have this thing that's happening in their lives. It's hard for us, we don't always wanna connect into that cuz it's really painful. But connecting into that is really important. So I think it's a combination of that. And let's be honest, we've only been just saying the cancer word out loud for about 30 years. In the fifties and the sixties, cancer was whispered. She has cancer. It wasn't a common conversation. So the idea that we can talk about it out loud in front of our friends, in front of our coworkers that we're no longer afraid is new to us. So I think that's the other thing too, is we're, we just don't, we just haven't been taught this is a whole new way to approach having cancer and so we just don't really know what to do with it.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes, and I know I shared this with you before we started the podcast, but to everyone listening, I had a conversation with Jimmy, my husband this morning, and I showed him your book because really I love practical tips, and your book is really one of the best. It would probably be my favorite now tool because it really goes through all the different areas of focus on what not to say, and practical ways you give examples. Everyone gives concepts, but really what does that specifically mean in what I do? How can people offer this support and care for someone with cancer without overstepping boundaries? I think that's another concern, or making assumptions about what that person needs or wants.

Kim Hamer:

Yeah, so I think the first thing is to, now this often varies because sometimes you get the news and then you say something and then you take the step back. But if you can, before you react to that person, take a moment to just take in what they just said to you. Just acknowledge. I think that's the first thing to do, is that person in front of you who you care about will most likely die if they don't do something. Right? And that's, that's the honest to goodness truth, and that's really scary. It touches on our own mortality. Ben Franklin said it best, there's two things you can be sure of, death and taxes. And so we're all going to die. And it's very uncomfortable. We don't like to think about it. We don't like to talk about it, and we don't know when. We don't know. And so when someone we care about is dealing with that, it's really important that we just take a moment to take a breath, and to touch in on that pain because I think that makes us much more open and able to, and receptive to what the person who's dealing, what your friend with cancer is dealing with.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes.

Kim Hamer:

If you've said something already, I think that even before you say something, if you can just take a step back, they aren't telling you this information because you are in their circle. So in a way it's a gift. They are not telling you this information because they expect you to take action on it. They're not telling you this information, so you can go and turn around and tell somebody else. They're telling you this information because they care about you and they want you to know this is happening in their lives. And I think it's, it's important that we take that moment and understand that we don't have to take action in that moment. This is a great country. We are really big on doing things and being independent and taking action and moving forward and just getting stuff done. And in that I think we're experiencing this right now as a country cuz of Covid, we don't take a moment to talk about our beings. And so just take a moment to, to remember this relationship you have with this person is important. It's sacred, and that gives you, you can take a step back and you don't have to dive into action right away. Because that person may not need anything from you other than, I'm really sorry this is happening and I'm I don't even know what to say. That's probably the two things that person needs most in the moment.

Ivelisse Page:

Now you were in the caregiver role, and yes, I would love your perspective as to why a person with cancer or their, or even yourself as the caregiver might not accept help.

Kim Hamer:

All sorts of reasons. Last month I wrote a blog post with nine specific reasons, so I'll just name a couple of them here. I think the most hidden one is not feeling worthy. It's really hard when, we go about our lives, we don't really understand how important we are to people. Something catastrophic happens and people come outta the woodwork to support and you're blown away. My husband and I were blown away. And you're like, okay, but why, like, why are you helping? This is like I live in West LA and you are in the valley and you're coming over and sitting in all that traffic to just get here. Like why? So we don't often value who we are and the effect we have on other people in our lives on a daily basis. I think the second thing is there's something called the law of reciprocity, which means if I give to you, you are expected to give back something of the same or equal value. It's where, writing thank you note cards come from, right? So you think about that or a friend drops off a meal or when you go out to lunch and your friend pays for you, what do you say? I'll get you next time. So yes. So it's that. Yeah. So it's that law and when someone, when people are giving to you a lot when people are showing up at your doorstep, a lot of people are showing up at your doorstep. It makes you feel, start to feel like you have to pay all these people back. And as a matter of fact, in the beginning, I actually asked my sister, who was taking care of the meal stuff, I said, just tell them not to come anymore. And she's don't you need meals? And I'm like, yes. But it's just it's too much. There's too many people that keep showing up and I just feel really bad. And she's the one who pointed out that, Kim, one person is bringing you a meal, another person is bringing you a meal. A totally different person is also bringing you a meal. Like I had to really separate out. It wasn't one person bringing me three meals. And I had to really take a step back and go, okay, I get it. But even there were moments during the whole thing, especially after he died, where I tried to keep, this is crazy, and I've heard widows doing it. I tried to keep a list of the things that people gave us after my husband died so I could write them all thank you notes. And it was just in the, in my grief brain, my, my regular brain was like, yes, that's the right thing to do. My grief brain was like, you are outta your cotton picking mine. That's just not, that's not something you can manage right now. And it really wasn't. I needed to accept that I was not going to be able to do that. So I think those, I think law, reciprocity and not feeling good enough are the two main reasons. Sometimes people feel like they just don't want everybody to know, so they don't want people in their inner circle. They don't want people to see them in, the various stages of getting chemo or radiation. So that's another reason. And there's really nothing you can do with that one. Yeah. Other than just love them from a distance.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. I know for me it was, I have no issues giving to other people, but I felt bad getting help from other people. I felt like I was putting them out.

Kim Hamer:

Yes.

Ivelisse Page:

And I remember my sister-in-law says, Ivelisse, when you prevent people from helping, you're actually robbing them of the blessing.

Kim Hamer:

That is exactly what a friend of mine said to me.

Ivelisse Page:

Oh, good. Really? Yeah. Okay.

Kim Hamer:

She said the same thing. She said, people love you, people love Art, people love the kids. How dare you, don't let them show that love to you. That is the meanest thing you could possibly do. And she was absolutely right. Your sister was spot on.

Ivelisse Page:

So you share so many practical ways, like even with bringing a meal, like I love we've done this for friends too, is that they put a cooler out front. Something so simple so that the person doesn't have to answer every door, or if their immune system is really weakened, to know that they don't have to get people in and out of their house that could compromise that immune system. So tips like that are so valuable, but can you share with us the story you shared in the book about your neighbor after your husband passed? How he helped with your car?

Kim Hamer:

Yeah. My neighbor, Nate, one day wandered up to the house and knocked on the door. And said, Hey, when was the last time the oil was changed in your car? And I was like, there's oil in the car. And I'm just kidding. There was a moment where I was like, I literally was like, I have no idea that had been Art's job. And I couldn't even tell him if the oil, if the, the light was green, yellow, or red at that point. And so he said, I'll tell you what leave the keys in the mailbox tomorrow. I'm home all day tomorrow. Leave the keys in the mailbox. Text me, I'll come up and grab it for you and then I'll text you when it's done. I said, okay. And there's one key point to this offer that I wanna make is the"leave the keys in the mailbox". So he made it easy for me to accept help. I didn't have to face him. And it's really hard when you get a lot of help. You feel like you are not thankful enough or I felt like I was not showing enough gratitude. And of course I was saying thank you way too many times. So it was making everyone else really uncomfortable. But the fact that he intuitively knew that he didn't wanna burden me with the being thanked and he didn't wanna be thanked 50,000 times cuz it was something that he wanted to do that he knew that Art would've done. So I did that. I left the keys in the mailbox, I texted him, the car disappeared for a couple hours, came back, and then I went out with the kids to the car and I was like, the car looks really different and it's because he had cleaned the outside. And I get into the car and I start to cry because not only had he cleaned the outside and the inside had them both cleaned and I had young children at that time and I was driving him minivan that thing was a wreck. He had also, had the oil changed and he had also filled it with gas, and it is one of the favorite stories I tell all the time because what he did was he removed a burden that I had that I didn't even know that I had. At some point I would've realized that the oil needed to be changed, and in my head I would've gone, oh, okay. The oil needs to be changed. I need to go find a place to do it. I'll make an appointment. I'll bring the car down. I'll sit and wait for it. I'll pay the man, I'll bring the car back. When you're not in grief, when you're not dealing with cancer, that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. It feels it's much, right? It's not like easy, but you take some planning, but you can do it. When you are in the middle of dealing with loss or with cancer, something else tragic in your life. Doing those simple things takes, you know herculean effort, and so what he did by just doing that was he took this huge burden off of me that I didn't have to think about getting gas or worry about having gas in the car as I was leaving the house to get the kids, or worry about the fact was the tank on E or was it not on E and he helped me drive, for the next couple months without worrying about changing the oil and having the car cleaned. And that's the kind of gift I like, I like to give that example because he thought about this, he offered, very specific offer, which was fantastic. I could have turned him down, but I would've remembered the offer. So I might have reached out to him a second time. And then it, he just did it. There wasn't any fanfare. There wasn't a, I am here, I'm come to take the car. He just snuck in, snuck out, and it was done. The story that's not in the book is that, it's funny cuz like a year or two later, what he did meant so much to me that I walked down to his house. We had been going down there tons of times. But I'd walked down one day and I just knocked on the door and I said, I just really wanna thank you. Like that thing that you did, the changing of the oil and the gas and the cleaning. It was just so huge in so many different ways. And he gave me a big hug and he said, I wanna thank you. Thank you for letting me help and feel like I can make your life a little bit easier. Wow. And I think that's what we forget is that when we are the people who are dealing with the issue, it's like your friend said, people around us want and need to feel useful and want, and need to feel like they're doing something for you. And when we turn those people down, when we say no, we are actually causing a little bit of psychic harm. And we're also making it, making them afraid, one, if they're in a situation to accept help, and two, we're making them a little bit more afraid to offer to somebody else.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. That's just such a great example. I just love that story and I can see why you share it. What are other five top ways that you would say that you could help someone who has cancer?

Kim Hamer:

I think one is kids, if they have children, help their kids help them. The kids know that something's not right, depending on what level the children are aware and they want to help too. And one of the best things you can do is help the kids, help the parent, or help the kids, help whoever in the family has cancer that could be helping them cook a meal. That could be helping them put on a play that could be helping take them to one of the pottery places and make something. that could be putting together a playlist. The options are huge. So I always say help the kids help the person who's sick because their kids are often overlooked.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes.

Kim Hamer:

You already got the cooler by the front door. That's one of my favorite tips because it is what you said. It gives the person who's receiving the support, the option to have a conversation if they feel like engaging. Another one that I think is often overlooked is celebrations. We often think, oh, they're sick. They may not wanna celebrate their birthday, or their husband died, so maybe they don't wanna celebrate the anniversary or it's the anniversary death, they don't wanna be reminded. For me, newsflash, I know exactly what day my husband died and no one's going to remind me that he died. Find those times, like you can talk to them and say, Hey, I know you, you're whatever doing with cancer, and maybe you don't wanna throw a birthday party this year, but I know you have a birthday tradition, or is there a part of your birthday tradition that I can help you carry out so you can keep the tradition going?

Ivelisse Page:

I love that. I love that. Yeah. And it's actually one, one way that one of my good friends flew in from out of town. I had surgery and a month later it was my son's birthday and I still wasn't feeling well. And birthdays are a huge deal at our house.

Kim Hamer:

Yes.

Ivelisse Page:

And I think, as you wanna still feel normal, you wanna still feel like life is going, you don't want everything to be focused around the cancer. And so she flew in, she helped me with all the decorations and the cakes and the goody bags and all of that. And I'll never forget it, and seeing my son laughed and enjoy that time with his friends it just made the world and I could just be there and enjoy it and know that she was taking care of all the details that would've normally I would've done or exhausted me, or I couldn't do, or we would've had to cancel it.

Kim Hamer:

Yeah. I think people are afraid. Cause what if this is the last birthday, right? So there's that level of fear, but again, I'm, I really urge people when they offer help to be as specific as possible. I think, oh no, we didn't talk about it. Just a quick aside, I always tell people don't say, if you need anything, let me know. It's the least helpful thing to say, and there are really four specific reasons. One, you're not connecting like we talked about earlier. You're going immediately into action. And even though you mean it, you can hear it in your voice. There's that moment, you just need to acknowledge that the news that they just got was crappy. It just sucks. So take that moment to acknowledge it and that phrase doesn't do that. Second, you had child, I had kids. What's anything? Did anything mean that you were gonna take your brand new, just cleaned BMW or any brand new, just cleaned car and drive up to preschool to pick up my vomiting four year old? Or did anything mean that you'd be happy to drop off a bottle of wine? Anything is too broad for anybody to wrap their heads around. The third reason it's not helpful is now you've inadvertently put the pressure on the person you're trying to help to come up with something. So you don't mean to, and you really want, you want them to come up with something because you want direction, but this is not the time for direction. So you're asking them to come up with what it is that they want and I don't know if you remember but trying to break apart your day you have a routine and to try to break apart your day and find that one piece that somebody might be able to do, it's really hard. And the fourth reason is we go back to, look, we're all really good at helping, but we are all really crappy at asking. So now you've put this person who's in a really vulnerable state, and let's say they did figure out the one thing, and they're not sure if what you meant by anything, but they really need this one thing. So now you're asking them to be extremely vulnerable and to ask you to do the one thing that maybe it's a 2:00 AM in the morning, or maybe you just ran outta milk. And you need milk for cereal to get your kids out the door. And so it's 7:00 AM in the morning and it's just too risky. So a person is usually not going to ask unless they're like your bestest friend and they live next door type of thing.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah.

Kim Hamer:

So my advice goes back to, be specific in what you are willing to offer and offer more than once.

Ivelisse Page:

Love it.

Kim Hamer:

And people often say, I don't know what to do. And here's the thing, we have things in our lives that we do every day that we love doing. I love a clean kitchen. I love cleaning the kitchen at night makes me very happy and I'll do that.

Ivelisse Page:

You come to my house?

Kim Hamer:

Yes. I'll come to your house and do it. I'll do it. Be happy to do it. So that's what I'm saying. It's we all have helping superpowers. Things that we take for granted that we just like doing. I had a friend who loved doing laundry. So guess who did, I was hesitant and I was like, I don't wanna wash in my underwear. But I was like, you know what you're doing laundry. Go for it. There are people who are just, we all have things that we're good at that we think we don't think anything about. And oftentimes, or that we assume someone else is just as good at and enjoys it just as much. And that's not the case. And so finding that thing and making sure that you're making that offer specifically is really important.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. I love that. So we have kids wanna help.

Kim Hamer:

Yes.

Ivelisse Page:

You have a cooler by the front door.

Kim Hamer:

Yes.

Ivelisse Page:

The importance of celebrations and how to help.

Kim Hamer:

Yes.

Ivelisse Page:

In those ways. So what would be your next one?

Kim Hamer:

I love the lawyers, guns and money, which you bought up. So there's a tip in my book which says, send lawyers, guns and money. And I think it's a Zzz top. No. It's a, I don't remember the words what song it's from but I think sometimes, cancer can equal death. Is there a will? Is there a living will, a living trust? Are you all protected? The money thing is often a hard thing to get around, but maybe you're that person who can have that honest conversation. Can you get by? Do you have short term disability? So just being the person who can ask those questions and have honest questions. When my husband died, we didn't think he had insurance, at the time he died and it was terrifying. And as it was, we only got a third of what he was supposed to have.

Ivelisse Page:

Wow.

Kim Hamer:

And that was terrifying. But had someone just even said, Hey Kim, what's the life insurance policy? Yep. I might have been like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't wanna talk about it. Or I might have been like that at first. And then two days later called him and said, you know what? We need to talk about this, can you help? So I think it takes, you have to be courageous because you might get an immediate rejection. Nobody wants to talk about that stuff, but making sure you have a living will, that's really important, especially if you are not married, or you're not with a partner, right?

Ivelisse Page:

Yes.

Kim Hamer:

Where are the kids? If you're a stepparent or if you're a parent and you're with someone who is not the biological person of that person, what is it you want to happen with them? I know a widow who went to court to fight for custody of his stepdaughter, and he won, but he had to go to court and it took him two years.

Ivelisse Page:

Wow.

Kim Hamer:

So nobody wants to talk about this stuff, but it's really important. So I think the send lawyers, guns and money is a huge tip. And then the last one is not as practical as the other ones, but it is to please remember that you matter. You know who you are in your friend's life, why your friend has you in their life. You may never know. You may never understand, but they have you in their life for a reason. You bring them some type of joy, you bring them something that they need. And so just remember to get past the fear, like you matter trump's the fear, the anxiety of saying the wrong thing, cuz you can always redo it. It trumps all those hesitations. You just have to remember, the end goal is to love up this person in your life, in whatever way you can. That's the end goal, so that you matter. Whatever you do, you matter. And I think that's the piece that most of us get stuck in our head. Because we get so caught up with saying the right thing. Doing the right thing. Fear, fear of saying the wrong thing, fear of causing harm, fear of looking stupid. But in the end, all those kind of diminish when you think about how important you are to your friend.

Ivelisse Page:

I love that. And in closing I would love for you to share some of the phrases that have power that you share in your book when you are needing to hear words of affirmation when you're going through difficulty. Share with us some of those phrases that have power that we can use to encourage someone going through a difficult crisis.

Kim Hamer:

Sure. So one of'em is, just say, I am so sorry. Just from the heart, I'm so sorry that you were going through this. It's when you say it with the right tone and the right intonation, they understand. They completely understand. Another one that I love and I still love is, I don't know what to say. And to me that's a way of honoring the harshness of the news. Because you just learned that someone you care about has cancer and it's shocking. I think that's the only thing, right? It's just shocking. And so it's leaving you speechless and that's really powerful to me.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes.

Kim Hamer:

I wanna caution people from doing the, my husband's, father's, brother's next door neighbor's uncle had cancer twice, and you should talk to him. Because no one really cares about the husband's, father's, brothers. I understand people do it to bring comfort to say, Hey, you're not alone. But at the same time, it doesn't really do that when it's so far removed and there's so many different kinds of cancer and some people are willing to talk about it, other people aren't willing to talk about it. So I caution against that sort of comparison. I think the other thing that I really want people to not say is the,"at least".

Ivelisse Page:

Yes.

Kim Hamer:

That's something that we try to make it better. Yeah, I don't even have to tell you do I?

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. And I've heard that from people. And again it's not malintentioned people really are trying to be helpful, but because we haven't been educated on what to say or not to say, sometimes we say the wrong thing. And I was reading some of the things that you shared in your book. Can you share the one about someone saying at least you're young?

Kim Hamer:

Yes. Yeah. After my husband died, I don't remember. I always forget it was a couple weeks or a couple months, but someone said to me after my husband died at least you're young and you can still get remarried. And I remember thinking at the time, that wasn't very nice. And then later thinking, oh, of course, why am I so upset? Because I can get remarried and start over again. Here's what it is, people want to give you the silver lining. And here's the thing that I've discovered, the silver lining is for me to discover. It's for your friend with cancer to discover. It's for you to discover. It's not for, it's not for anyone else to point out. And when we say"at least" we are trying to put a positive spin on a negative situation, which isn't helpful, right? Cuz it goes back to the beginning. When you have a really bad day, you don't always want someone to fix it. You want someone to just honor the fact that you've had a bad day. You just wanna talk about it and get it outta your system. And then maybe afterwards someone can fix it. Sometimes you don't even need anybody to fix it.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah.

Kim Hamer:

And so just taking that moment to honor, that's really crappy situation and the"at least" doesn't do that. At least you got another breast. That's, I've heard that before too. People have said, and I've heard that from friends. People say at least you don't have to lose two breasts. And it's like one is bad enough.

Ivelisse Page:

And that goes back to the things that you said that you should say, the phrases that have power, which is, I'm sorry.

Kim Hamer:

Yes.

Ivelisse Page:

Or even just sitting next to a friend without saying a word,

Kim Hamer:

Yes.

Ivelisse Page:

Letting them know that your presence is there. Thinking I'm thinking of you.

Kim Hamer:

Yes.

Ivelisse Page:

Those are just short from the heart without having to give elaborate explanations. And I think that is the best advice I had been given and I heard from people when we were going through it. And in closing, is there a message that you would hope that our listeners would take away from today's podcast, an overriding message?

Kim Hamer:

I think I already spilled that with tip number five. It really is. I just really want people to step into the value that they have as a friend, as a coworker, as a boss, as a neighbor, as the person who's running through the grocery line. We have tremendous value to each other and I want people to not always be looking for proof of that value to just trust, that you have value and show up on that pretense. People really do matter. Yeah.

Ivelisse Page:

Thank you so much Kim, for joining us today. You are a beautiful person. I could just feel your heart coming through.

Kim Hamer:

Thank you.

Ivelisse Page:

And I know that our listeners just gained so much insight and encouragement to have tools now that can help them in the future. So I'm really grateful for today's conversation. So thank you for joining us.

Kim Hamer:

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Ivelisse Page:

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