Believe Big Podcast

99-Bill & Kristi Gaultiere - Empathy, Oxygen for the Soul

• Ivelisse Page & Bill and Kristi Gaultiere • Season 4 • Episode 99

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In this episode of the Believe Big podcast, Ivelisse welcomes Bill and Kristi Gaultiere to explore the life-giving role of empathy in emotional and spiritual well-being. 

Drawing from their new book, Deeply Loved, Bill, a psychologist and pastor, and Kristi, a psychotherapist and spiritual director, share how empathy—distinct from sympathy—can become a powerful source of healing, especially for those facing health crises like cancer. They introduce the Four A’s of empathy: asking, attuning, acknowledging, and affirming, while also highlighting the importance of practicing self-empathy. 

Rooted in both biblical wisdom and psychological insight, the conversation offers practical encouragement for those feeling emotionally weary or spiritually distant, showing how empathy can deepen love, strengthen resilience, and serve as true “oxygen for the soul.”

Learn more about Bill and Kristi Gaultiere and Soul Shepherding:
https://www.soulshepherding.org/


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Ivelisse Page:

Hi, I am Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to the Believe Big podcast, the show where we take deep dive into your healing with health experts, integrative practitioners, biblical faith leaders, and cancer thrivers from around the globe. Welcome to today's episode on the Believe Big podcast. My name is Ivelisse Page and it's always a pleasure to be able to spend this time with you. Okay, friends, are you in for a treat today? My dear friends Bill and Kristi Gaultiere are here together to talk about their new book, Deeply Loved. A little bit about them first, Bill is a psychologist and an ordained pastor specializing in ministry to pastors. He was personally mentored for many years by Dallas Willard and Ray Ortlund, Sr. His earlier book, Your Best Life in Jesus' Easy Yoke, tells the story of his spiritual renewal from anxious living and burnout, and introduces the message and way of Soul Shepherding, an organization that he co-founded with his wife, Kristi. That was also the first book I read during my sabbatical three years ago, and it truly changed my life. Bill has also trained over a thousand late counselors and taught courses in Christian psychology and spirituality at the graduate school level. He has been speaking to churches and conferences since 1987. Kristi, she has been on our show several times and is a psychotherapist and a spiritual director for women in ministry and pastor's wives. She co-leads Soul Shepherding with Bill and was personally mentored by Jane Willard and Dr. Jan Stoop. They are the co-founders of the amazing organization, Soul Shepherding, a nonprofit ministry to help believers discover their next steps for growing in intimacy with Jesus, emotional health, and loving relationships. Welcome to the podcast, Bill and Kristi.

Bill Gaultiere:

Thank you Ivelisse. We, and I just, hello to all the Believe Big friends. We're so glad to be in conversation with you today.

Ivelisse Page:

Well, Kristi knows that we always start our show with our favorite health tip, and since this is the first time that you're on, we would love to hear one from you this time.

Bill Gaultiere:

Yeah, well, I could give lots of health tips because I care a lot about my health. Every day I exercise and, get outside of nature, things like that. But that, what I wanna share is that maybe an unusual health tip that actually relates to our conversation is I've learned the importance of asking for empathy. And how much that makes a difference in my energy level and my health. And so truly every day I ask Kristi or a friend and of course always the Lord for empathy to understand what I feel and what I'm experiencing because otherwise I repress my emotions and then it just gets clogged up inside and I can get de depressed or anxious and run down in terms of my energy and all that internalization of stress that is just so natural in, in life today and in certainly in family life and in ministry and in work is not good for our health. So empathy helps us to experience that cathartic relief.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. And for those who are not familiar with empathy, I've been learning a lot about that since taking your spiritual direction training. Explain to people what is empathy and how is that different from, than sympathy.

Kristi Gaultiere:

Well, empathy is really attuning to, and listening and seeking to understand another person's thoughts, emotions, experiences, and as you listen and you attune to them and you join and seeking to really understand their experience, it helps them to feel God's love and presence with them. It's using words to be able to mirror back to them what you're hearing, to check it out, to see if you really truly are understanding, and to give them an opportunity to clarify, to expand. As we write about in our new book, Deeply Loved, Receiving and Reflecting God's Great Empathy, this is something that we all long for, many of us have never experienced, and as we experience it, we recognize how desperate we are to be really understood, to be known, to be seen, to be heard, to feel wanted.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. Yeah. You're in the book. You emphasize the healing and the power of empathy, which aligns beautifully with what we see in the cancer journey, and I believe you write"empathy is oxygen for the soul." Can you explain why empathy is so vital, especially for those navigating pain, fear, and uncertainty?

Bill Gaultiere:

Lemme just think about if you grow up in a smoggy city and you're just always breathing un unclean, smoggy air, and maybe you don't even real realize it because you've adapted to it, but then you, one day you get out into the country where, and the air is clean and fresh and pure, and you breathe in deep, it's like, oh my goodness, what have I been missing? Empathy is like that. It's ubiquitous. I mean, I, everybody probably has some sense of what the word means. But a lot of people haven't really experienced it, so it's like that fresh air that fills our lungs, the lungs of our soul. And I mean, this is so important when we're struggling with our health, certainly the cancer journey, but also grief. and, any sort of health challenges and sickness. Because when we're in this condition chronic health issues it's wearing down our energy because our body needs so much energy to go through the surgery, the recovery, let alone the emotional toll it all takes. And so empathy is energizing when we learn how to receive it. And that's the hard thing for some people, because they feel like, oh, but it is so hard to let my emotions out. You know, I don't wanna cry. You know, I'm embarrassed. And what people don't realize, it is like, we're living life like we're with one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake. And the foot on the gas is okay you know, I need to share, I need support. I need someone to pray for me. But the foot on the brake is, oh, I'm too emotional. I'm too needy. I should be stronger. I shouldn't be dealing with all this stuff. And so with a foot on the gas and the foot on the brake and our soul we're grinding our engine and it's exhausting us. So we have to learn how to not fight against ourself and how to ask for empathy, receive it, appreciate. And as we do that's where it really releases stress and energy and gives us energy, which enables us to have the strength that we need, the hope that we need the sense of I'm not alone with this as we're dealing with health challenges.

Kristi Gaultiere:

And Ivelisse, I am familiar with the cancer journey. I lost my mom, my brother-in-law to cancer within the last two years, and my other brother-in-law, my sister's husband now has pancreatic cancer and has been undergoing treatment for the last year. And I have seen the difference that empathy makes in their journey and in their life. And even just recently as my sister expressed, you know, I feel like. It's not just my husband that has cancer. I feel like we have cancer because it has so affected her life for the last year. It has become front and center for her in the caregiving, in the doctor's appointments, in caring for him in the middle of the night in all the decisions that come with treatment in all of the urgent interruptions that come of symptoms and side effects and didn't expect this and what now? And even just recently, you know, learning about a study that he's on, lost funding, discontinued with just all the ups and downs of the journey. And she's going through it all with him. And so I was so grateful that she was able to recognize the we in that because she needs as much empathy as he does. There's still some differences between his experience and hers, and that's part of the empathy attuning to those differences. You asked what's the difference between empathy and sympathy and one big difference would be sympathy isn't bad. It's a good thing. And I just am saying to many of your listeners, I have sympathy. I have some understanding of their cancer journey from my experience journey with my mom and my two brother-in-laws, my sisters through this, but I don't have full empathy for their unique experience. And if they were to tell me, oh, I have cancer, or, oh, my husband has cancer, or, oh, my mom has cancer, and I were to respond with, oh, I know how you feel. That's such a hard journey. My mom and sister, brothers, you know, I've been on that. It's just so hard. That might be sympathy in terms of that I'm telling them I'm feeling for them and I have some experience with it, but I'm turning the attention on me, and then they may feel like, oh, now I need to listen and care for Kristi. She's traumatized from her cancer, you know, her family members she's journeyed with, and it's like, no, that's really not what they need. What they need is for me to listen to their experience right now.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. Well thank you for clarifying that. That is, I love examples because it really brings us in and knowing exactly the difference. So that was a beautiful example of that. You know, scripture is at the heart of Believe Big's mission and what, what does the Bible teach us about God's empathy and how can embracing his compassion equip us to better love ourselves and others through a diagnosis like cancer.

Bill Gaultiere:

Yeah, well there, there's so many scriptures in our book, Deeply Loved. We actually reference over a hundred empathy scriptures we call them. And, not everybody sees this because the word empathy is not in the older translations of the Bible. It is in some of the newer translations. But the concept of empathy is everywhere in scripture. I mean, it's embedded in compassion. For instance, compassion is often the first word we think of to describe Jesus. And compassion without empathy wouldn't be true compassion. It wouldn't be truly helpful because for compassion to have the real impact that's healing and life changing for someone, it needs to be based on understanding their true needs. Sometimes we wanna do something good for people, but it doesn't actually fit what they really need. So we're giving'em a handout, but actually they need a hand up. They need their dignity, respected. They need to learn something. And so, empathy is all over the place for so many examples. Psalm 56, David writes, you have collected all my tears in your bottle. I mean, if that's sort of listening and tender care towards our tears and our hurts, I mean, that's, if that's not empathy what is that? And Jeremiah the Lord says, I listen to the weeping of my people. It can be heard all across the land. I hurt with the hurt of my people. Back in Genesis 16 is an example where Hagar the Lord is talking to Hagar and then she begins to use a new name for God. And she, she says to him, you are the God who sees me. That's empathy. And the scripture says, she said this because she thought, I see that even in this place, her place of grief and suffering, God sees me and cares for me. She's saying God has empathy for me. In a, the Disciple Disciples literal New Testament translation, we have this great rendering of Matthew 20:34, having felt deep feelings of compassion, Jesus touched their eyes and they immediately saw again and they followed him. That's in Matthew 20:34. A verse where many are familiar with Romans 12:15. Be happy with those who are happy. Be sad with those who are sad. Empathy is for not just the sad times, it's also for the up times, the celebrations. It's sharing someone's experience with them, supporting them, caring for them, and even celebrating with them. And then our favorite empathy verse, Hebrews 4:15, for we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses. We have one who's been tempted in every way just as we are, and yet he did not sin. And so our Lord Jesus has empathy for us. He experienced everything in the human journey, including all types of suffering.

Ivelisse Page:

I love those. Thank you for sharing those. You know, I think one of the hardest things as staff members or even caregivers is that we tend to pour out empathy for others. And many times, like you mentioned, it's important to have empathy for ourselves, self empathy, and that being an essential part of our lives, not only for emotional health, but for spiritual resilience. Can you talk a little bit more about why self empathy is essential?

Kristi Gaultiere:

Well, self empathy is essential because if we are not agreeing with God's grace, with his love, with his empathy for us, it's not gonna get inside of us we'll spoil it, and it's the same thing if somebody else is giving us empathy and we're dismissing it. Or in, in pride, we're not wanting to need it or we're shut down against what they're empathizing us with and we don't wanna go and feel those emotions at the time, then we're gonna resist it. We're gonna resist the gift of empathy and we're gonna refuse it. And so self empathy, we actually call agreeing with God's grace. It's a lot of people are afraid of self empathy because they think it's self-pity, but self-pity is actually really just, it's false empathy. It's just kind of feeling sorry for yourself. It's maybe stirring up negative emotions or playing the victim. Self empathy is not self pity. Self empathy is agreeing with God's empathy for us and other people's empathy for us, and with our need for that empathy and receiving that grace that we're not alone, that others are with us, care for us, praying for us, journey with us, and really can and want to understand what we're feeling and experiencing, to better be able to love us. The other thing that can be a resistance to self empathy is a lot of people think self empathy is self-help. It's not self-help in the sense of it's not, you know, hugging yourself. It just doesn't feel the same as a hug or it's not finding answers within yourself, looking within yourself for answers. No. It's agreeing with God's grace and truth for you, mediated by shepherds after his own heart ambassadors of him who are giving you that empathy. But without self empathy, we won't appreciate the empathy that God and others give us.

Ivelisse Page:

You know, one of the strengths of Deeply Loved, as you mentioned, Bill, that it has over a hundred scriptures on empathy and it, I just love how it weaves biblical wisdom with psychology insight. So why is it important, especially for those dealing with illness or grief to integrate both faith and these emotional tools in the healing process?

Bill Gaultiere:

Yeah. When we think about spirituality or theology, it's basically about our relationship with God and our life with God. When we think about psychology, it's understanding people and our relationships with one another, and the two go together. They're really two sides of the same coin. The Bible has so much to say about people and our relationships, and we can understand God through people and we can, and we understand people through God. So it is a two, two way street there. But the clear, distinctive and, compelling reason for studying psychology is because it gets at a deeper understanding of the person and of our relationships and of what we call unconscious resistances. So my analogy about, you know, a foot on the gas and a foot on the brake, you know, I'm asking for help. Say I'm talking to a spiritual director, I'm asking for help, but as I do that, I'm being self-critical in the background in, in my mind. And so I'm fighting myself. And that's why we bring out this concept of self empathy that Kristi was talking about. This is an example of what we call Jesus centered psychology. We always want our psychology be to submitted to the Lord Jesus and to his word. And so what we see with self empathy is that it's a way of becoming aware of, I'm fighting my own self. I'm having trouble accepting, say, my cancer journey and the pain and the div, and it's very natural to feel that way. But then if I start fighting myself that, you know, I shouldn't be tired, or why do I have to go through this? Well, I need empathy for those feelings. But if I don't come to a place of trusting God and trusting the medicine and the treatment and really going with it and journey with somebody else, then I'm gonna be fighting myself. And so to be able, even to imagine good things coming. So while you're taking your medicine, you're praying, you're thanking God for the medicine. While somebody is listening to you or praying to you, you're saying, thank you. Yes, I need this, and you're quieting down and pushing back that resistance inside of you that says, oh, you shouldn't need this. You should be stronger. You're receiving it, you're absorbing it, you're appreciating it, you're saying thank you. And so we need some psychology to understand these unconscious resistances. And this is one of the reasons why we really stress in Soul Shepherding, and particularly in our book, Deeply Loved the importance of self-awareness in understanding what's going on un under the hood. And where you're not really looking, and none of us can really see ourselves accurately by ourselves. We need God and God's word. Obviously, we know that as Christians, but we also need one another. That's why Jesus taught us to love one another. It's in the context of our relationships with each other as we share more deeply about our life, that we become more aware of sins that we need to confess, hurts that need healing, places where we're really tired, and also these unconscious resistances that are going on. And so these are some of the reasons why psychology can be so helpful. And so even in Soul Shepherding we train spiritual directors. We don't train counselors and we do train counselors for spiritual direction, but we don't have counselors on our staff. We have spiritual directors on our staff. But what we do is we train them in Jesus-centered psychology so that the spiritual formation and spiritual direction is informed by that Jesus-centered psychology. So we're not treating mental health disorders in Soul Shepherding. There are Christian therapists and counselors people can go to for that. But we're training spiritual directors and coaches who are really helping people in their prayer life and their relationship with God and their personal struggles in the context of their discipleship to Jesus. But it's so helpful when we have an understanding of Jesus-centered psychology as it relates to whatever we're struggling with.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah, I completely agree. I've learned so much from you both, and it has really been eyeopening in so many facets of even deepening my own faith, learning that aspect of psychology through your retreats and this course, and in all of them. And in the Deeply Loved book you mentioned the four As of empathy. Could you guys walk us through these and explain how that might be helpful for someone trying to love someone well, in the middle of a health crisis or even a caregiving role?

Kristi Gaultiere:

Yes, the four A of empathy start with the first day of asking. We need to actually want to be listened to and understood and be willing to share. And so asking if someone could listen to you, someone could seek to understand your experience is that key step. Or asking somebody else that you love, that you're wanting to know, that you're wanting to listen to and express and give empathy to, to ask them if what they're experiencing. Ask them good questions. Curiosity can be a great way to show them your interest, to help them to feel safe and trusted that you want to understand, so that ask the asking to talk or the asking to listen. And then secondly, the second A, is attuning to the emotions as you're listening to the person share. What are they feeling? What are they experiencing? What is it like to be in their body, with what they're feeling physically, emotionally? What is it like to have their personality? What is it like to be in the relationships they're in, the circumstances to be carrying the responsibilities they're carrying, to really be attuning and listening for the emotions of that and the level of emotions. And that leads to the third A, which is to acknowledge the significance as you're listening and as you're using your words to help them know that you're understanding, that you're mirroring back to them what you're sensing from them, what you're attuning to, and checking it out with them. So as you acknowledge the significance it might be, and you're attunement to motion, you're discerning that maybe they're feeling some level of fear. Well, you can check that out into attuning to their emotions. It seems like you might be afraid. I'm wondering, is this just like an underlying anxiety that you're feeling or are you feeling terrified of going into surgery or you know, like someone is approaching something as you're listening to that they're maybe sharing with you about, you wanna understand the significance of it and maybe there's something uniquely significant to them about it. Like maybe you had your last medical procedure didn't go well. And so you're even more afraid this time. That makes it more significant. You wanna really personalize this. So that they understand, you're really getting the level of their experience, the weight of their experience, the fullness of the personalized to them right now in their life and their journey. And then fourth, and this is always the last, you wanna always end by affirming their strengths. And I say this needs to be last because if we rush to the affirmation too early, what tends to happen is it tends to shut down the person's awareness and emotional process that you're actually facilitating and holding the space for as you're listening to them with empathy. And that's a great gift you're giving them to help them to be able to bring what maybe they're not even fully conscious of into their awareness, into your awareness. One of the things that's such a blessing to me is I receive empathy, is I often will hear myself talking when someone's listening to me with empathy, I was like, I didn't even realize I felt that. Or, oh, you know, that was really helpful for me to articulate that, to name that because it was affecting me, but I hadn't had the chance to really try to express it. And so you're giving somebody a real gift as you're holding the space, as you're tuning to their emotions to help them in their own awareness. And you don't wanna shut that down by rushing too quick to affirmation or encouragement. Affirmation and encouragement is something we all need, especially after we have been vulnerable like we need to be to really receive empathy. And so it's a good ending to say, you know, I really admire your courage to take me into your pain or to share your fear, or, you know, that was really vulnerable, what you shared with me there. I respect you for that. We want to let them know genuinely, how we do respect them and champion them and to encourage them, but we don't wanna shut down or, put pat answers on trying to fix them or their emotions. We just wanna call out and let them know we are for them. We see a lot of strength in them, and to be specific with what we see.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah, so good. You know, a t Believe Big, we often say healing is more than physical. You guys know that very well. You know, it's the emotional, the spiritual, relational. You know, what is one simple way that someone can begin to love more deeply in relationships that matter most, especially when life feels overwhelming?

Bill Gaultiere:

You know, I think that the simple thing of saying to a friend or someone that you're a caregiver for, how are you feeling, you know, and really mean it. Smile as you say it, and then pause and listen and then follow up. You know, tell me more about that. It's that curiosity that Kristi was talking about, it's, it is having a soft heart to, to really understand and care. Everybody needs to be able to express themselves this way, so it make, it makes a big difference when we just tune in and listen. And I think all of you, Believe Big friends who are listening, I think you're getting the understanding that the way we're talking about empathy and Deeply Loved is probably different than you expected. Because what you probably expected was a whole podcast. It was like what I just said. And the four A's of empathy, listening skills, asking someone, how are you feeling, not interrupting, having great questions. You expected all of that and that is in our book. But that's not the main thing. It's not the heart of it. The heart of it actually is learning to receive empathy. And that's where people go wrong is they think empathy is just about learning and doing the listening skills. But actually to be really good at empathy, you need to have a heart of empathy. And while some people are naturally more empathetic than others, the fullness of a heart of empathy comes from receiving empathy from God and people that you trust. And so as empathy gets in us and we become more aware of our emotions and we learn to be, have self empathy, to have acceptance and grace for our emotions and our struggles. That helps us be more sensitive to other people, aware of other people, more able to tune in and be gentle and patient with the process so they really feel cared for. And that's my story. I'm a thinker and I'm a doer, not naturally very aware of my emotions and in terms of how I grew up and being an athlete and all that. And so I had to learn to slow down and feel, and it happened in college when one of my psychology professors, I would. I, became her teacher's aide. And so as I met with her, she would ask me, I was expecting to learn of how to be a better Christian counselor from her and be mentored, but she's, she always would say, well, Bill, how are you feeling? And so what I figured out was, oh, what I get for being a teacher's aide is I get counseling sessions. But I didn't, when she asked me, how do you feel, I was like, looking over my shoulder. I didn't know how to respond, but little by little over the time is she felt my emotions through listening to me and asking questions and then put words to those emotions, I began to feel my emotions and I started to learn how to receive empathy. And going on that journey is what's helped me become a safe person for Kristi, because early on when I was still learning this, I was too quick to give advice. I was too much in my head. I was wanting, you know, action. I was jumping in with a fourth A, giving encouragement. You know, everybody wants encouragement, but if you do that without empathy, it becomes performance pressure. It becomes conditions of worth and your ego gets attached to it. It's just like getting praise. We all want a little praise, but empathy is really emotionally being present for people to, to be emotionally present for other people. We need to learn how to let God and other people do that for us. It's just like the scripture says we love because God first loved us. Empathy is a component of love. So we could paraphrase. We empathize with others because God in Jesus, and through scripture and through the body of Christ is empathized with us. So as empathy gets in me and I learn to receive it, I can share it much better with other people.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. That's so good. I think in our society we have a lot of learning to do when it comes to this side, and I'm glad that people are learning through the Soul Shepherding on how to be a better listener, how to be more empathetic. Because it's true. You walk in somewhere, say to church or to a meeting, and you're like, how are you? And everyone's like, fine. You know, it's like the expected answer, but not really asking to fully hear how someone is doing. So being present, like you said, and really waiting for that answer instead of just a normal response that we normally get. And I think that's why it's so foreign, at least it was to me, to, oh, you actually wanna know how I'm feeling. So, thank you for all that you're doing to teach us about this. And before we close, you know, what encouragement would you offer to someone listening today who feels emotionally drained? They feel spiritually distant or uncertain if they're deeply loved.

Bill Gaultiere:

Well, I would want you to know that if you can look at Jesus, the son of God who became human for you, that he is with you and he feels deeply for you. And I'd want you to see Jesus, for instance, as he talks to the rich young ruler who was actually resisting Jesus. Mark 10:21 says Jesus looked at him and loved him. And if we could just look in the eyes of Jesus and see him in the gospels, get a picture of him in our mind and see that there's truly a smile on his face, a welcoming heart of love, and he really cares for what you're going through right now. He's numbered the hairs of your head. He cares about every little detail. And wherever you're at in your cancer journey, in your struggles with pain, as a caregiver who's tired, the Lord is looking at you with a smile, and he cares about you. He wants you to have time for your soul care, for your wellbeing, you matter to God.

Ivelisse Page:

Well thank you Bill and Kristi for joining us today. Just love seeing you all and all that you're doing to help others in this world. So God bless you and I'm excited to share more about Deeply Loved and your other resources. We will put them in the show notes for people to check them out and to be able to purchase them. So thank you for joining us today.

Bill Gaultiere:

Thank you Ivelisse. Thank you for being a wounded healer for so many people who are hurting. It's a blessing to be on your podcast.

Ivelisse Page:

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