Believe Big Podcast

103-Neil Broere - Obedience, Suffering & Reward

• Ivelisse Page & Neil Broere • Season 4 • Episode 103

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In this inspiring episode of the Believe Big Podcast, Ivelisse  sits down with Neil Broere—author, pastor, filmmaker, and global ministry leader—for a powerful conversation around his new book, Obedience, Suffering & Reward. 

Neil shares eye-opening stories from his missionary work in Iraq, the transformative role fasting has played in his life, and the personal experiences that have shaped his deep trust in God.

Together, they explore how God uses our hardest moments to grow us, strengthen us, and reveal His faithfulness in ways we might never expect. 

Neil offers hope-filled insights on navigating trials, overcoming “comfort-based Christianity,” and understanding the purpose behind our scars. His honest reflections and practical wisdom will leave you encouraged, challenged, and reminded that your story—no matter how difficult—can be a powerful testimony of God’s love and glory.

To learn more about Neil Broere:
https://www.neilbroere.com/about

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Ivelisse Page:

Hi, I am Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to the Believe Big podcast, the show where we take deep dive into your healing with health experts, integrative practitioners, biblical faith leaders, and cancer thrivers from around the globe. Welcome to today's episode on the Believe Big Podcast. My name is Ivelisse Page and it's always a pleasure to be able to spend this time with you. On today's episode of the Believe Big podcast, we welcome Neil Broere, author, pastor, filmmaker, and global ministry leader. Neil is the teaching pastor at Radiant Church on California's Central Coast and serves as the global director of Becoming Love Ministries, where he helps pioneer gospel initiatives around the world. Before relocating to California in 2022, Neil and his wife Lindsey, along with their four children, spent six deeply formative years as missionaries in Iraq, an experience that transformed their faith and taught them to trust God in ways they never imagined. Neil joins us today to talk about his powerful new book, Obedience, Suffering Reward, a must read for anyone who's ever asked, God, why is this so hard? In the book, Neil doesn't shy away from the harsh realities of following Jesus. Instead, he dives into the tension between obedience and suffering, revealing how God often leads us straight into the fire, not to destroy us, but to refine us. Through raw reflections from his own life and rich stories from scripture, Neil reminds us that suffering is not the end of the story. It's often the soil in which God grows the most beautiful rewards. Whether you're in a season of hardship or standing at a crossroads of faith, this conversation will encourage you to trust in God's redemptive plan. Neil's insights will challenge and inspire you to keep following Jesus even when the path leads through pain. Because as his book so powerfully declares, the way of the cross is always the way to glory. Welcome to the podcast, Neil!

Neil Broere:

Ivelisse, thank you for having me. It's an absolute honor.

Ivelisse Page:

Well, it is a tradition here on our podcast to start with our guest favorite health tip. And I know you mentioned that Lindsey's the the big health advocate, but I know you have one, so could you share one with us?

Neil Broere:

So, my favorite health tip would actually be fasting. Making fasting a typical, normal part of your rhythm. Of course we know the spiritual benefits of fasting, but the health benefits too often get ignored from folks who pursue fasting for the spiritual benefits. Yes, and I would, I would, personally, I don't fast for the health benefits, but what I've found is when I fast, obviously you're controlling your weight, you're increasing your metabolism. But two of the main benefits that I love health wise are decreasing inflammation, and increased cognitive, um, processing. Like I find that I have so much more mental clarity and sharpness when I'm fasting.

Ivelisse Page:

That is a great tip. And how long do you typically fast for?

Neil Broere:

I begin every year with a 40 day fast. And then throughout the year I'll do other smaller fasts. Maybe I'll throw in another 40 day fast, um, in the year as well.

Ivelisse Page:

Wow. That is amazing. I don't think I've ever done a 40 day food fast. It is, uh, I, I can't even imagine, but I know that a lot of people do. Is it a water fast or is it the Daniel Fast? Or how, how do you do that?

Neil Broere:

Typically on the, the longer fast, the 40 day fast, or even a 21 day fast, I'll do the first 10 to 14 days of water and then I'll transition to liquids. Um, unless there's just this rare month and a half that I can vanish and not have any responsibilities. But when you're pastoring a church, when you're fathering four children, that's usually pretty rare, so I find that I need to maintain some sort of strength in my body just to fulfill my responsibilities and transitioning to liquid during that second half of the fast really helps me do that.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, I know when I've done the short, fast, spiritually, you know, anytime you get hungry it reminds you to pray and to keep seeking him. So it's such a constant reminder and I can say for me as well that that is when I hear him most clearly. So I love that you do that to start the year. Maybe that's something I try this coming January as we start the new year, but today we're, we're talking about your book and you talk about obeying God when it doesn't make sense. And what does that look like in your own life?

Neil Broere:

It would be so much easier if God spoke our language and he gave us, this is why I want you to do what I'm asking you to do and this is what's gonna happen. But that's not the language that God speaks. His language is the language of faith. So often what he does is he will ask us to do something that our carnal mind doesn't make much sense. You know, it's like when he asked Abram to leave his family, leave the city that he, he grew up in, leave everything and go to the place that I'll show you. He didn't tell him, this is exactly where I want you to go. This is the directions you're gonna go. It was a move by faith. And what I've found in my life is the Lord is not often going to explain everything on the front end. It's a step of faith, and as we go, he unpacks some of the details, but often it's not even until we get there or afterwards that we realize, oh, this is what that was all about. I'm thinking of Peter. When Peter walked on water, there was a, that's a great example of a step of faith, and I heard it put this way. Peter wasn't walking on water, he was walking on the word of the Lord. The Lord said, come and, and, and Peter was standing on that word by faith. And it's the same when the Lord asks us to do something to obey him. It often doesn't come with clear, clear reasons or instructions, but we step out by faith.

Ivelisse Page:

I've heard that story so many times that I've never heard it explained as standing on his word, which is even more powerful about that story. What, what do you think is the danger of comfort based Christianity, you know, how is it distorting the gospel in your opinion?

Neil Broere:

Yeah, I refer to it as the gospel of the American Dream, which is come to Jesus and receive the best life you could ever imagine. And we get, we get, uh, our destination confused with our assignment. There, there is a promise for anyone who comes to Jesus. Every tear will be wiped away. That, that, that everything imaginable that he created will be received by us in inheritance. But we can't confuse our destination with our assignment. And I believe that gospel of the American dream, it removes the cross from the gospel, or at best it, it applies the cross to Jesus and what he did. But it removes the cross for you and I to bear in our own lives. And so when we walk through trials and difficulties, which Jesus says will come all who choose to follow him will suffer. Jesus wasn't playing around when he said, pick up your cross and follow me. When those things happen, it can become disorienting. It can become confusing. You think either you messed up or you know the enemy is attacking you or whatever it might be. When all the while Jesus is using some of our most difficult situations to make us more like him, just to put us through seasons of fire, which refine us. Purify us, um, make us more meek, humble. So us our own, our own frailty. Our, our, our, our true dependence on him for everything.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. I think for those of us who have walked through cancer, you know, we know that very well those who know Jesus and, and really have to lean on him with all the unknowns, with the things that are ahead. But what would you say to someone who is in their battle right now and for a long time and is starting to wonder, you know, is God still with me in this?

Neil Broere:

Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. Of course God is with you. He said he would never leave you nor forsake you. Uh, he's, he's experienced every trial that you or I could ever walk through. That's, that's one of the beauties of serving a God like our God. He doesn't ask us to do anything that he himself has not already experienced and walked through. So he's with us in the trial. He's with us in the pain. Um, I believe in the power of healing. I also believe that God will allow things to happen to us that we wish we, he would take away. And I'm thinking of Paul, the thorn in the side. Three times, Lord, please take this away. Jesus' response was essentially, no, I'm not gonna do that because my grace is sufficient and my power is actually perfected in that weakness. And I know in the middle of the trial, whether it be cancer or a prodigal child or a lost job, these questions of God, where are you right now, are so real and they're so raw. And the the best response we can give to someone who's walking through those situations is God is with you. He is not forsaken you. I'm thinking about Job's three friends. You know, Job is in the middle of a trial that not many of us will ever walk through and Job's three friends come with all kinds of answers and suggestions. What job needed was somebody to just sit with them. To just sit with him in the middle of his struggle. And I believe that's one of the things that Jesus does with us. He joins us in our struggle and he sits with us. He comforts us.

Ivelisse Page:

I love that. You know, I have friends who are Jewish and one of the things that they do when they are, when someone passes away is they sit with them. Hmm. They cover all the mirrors and they come and they just sit. Ah. And I just think that is something that I've always taken. And when you shared that, I just thought of that because so many times we feel as Christians that we have to say the right words, or the Romans 8 28 lands in a uncomfortable, painful place to many people because when someone is suffering, saying God will turn all things for good. Yeah, we know that, but it's not something that, that really lands well during those really painful moments. And so, you know, you talked about the fire and, and you write that the fire isn't the end of the story. Uh, for someone who's facing relentless treatment and exhaustion, how can they hold onto that truth in the fire?

Neil Broere:

Yeah, part of it is. Living for the age to come, not for this age. And I know that's, that's a, it's a very challenging thing to walk out in real time. It's easy to preach that it, it's, it's another thing to walk that out with somebody in the midst of their trial, but that really is the gospel message. Your life is no longer your own. You're seated with him in heavenly places. You're actually living the eternal life right now, and you're demonstrating what the age to come looks like. Sometimes that looks like miraculous healing, pain, removed the the, it looks like that heaven breaking into a situation in a powerful way. Sometimes it looks like unrelenting hope in the face of suffering. Sometimes it looks like absolute faith when everyone around you is saying, man, turn your back on God and go choose something different. You know, bringing heaven to earth can look like many different things, but I believe if, if we can have that perspective of I'm not living for this life, I'm living for the age to come, it really does reframe suffering in real time for us.

Ivelisse Page:

Yeah. And you also talk about how scars can become testimonies, you know, for cancer survivors, uh, I should say thrivers and fighters. You know, what does it mean to live with scars? That still hurt?

Neil Broere:

Foundationally, we serve a God who has scars on his body. There's a man seated on a throne in heaven right now with scars on his body and he rose from the dead. But it's a fascinating to me that resurrection didn't remove his scars. Those scars will forever serve as a witness that he loved us so much that nothing was gonna stand in the way of him getting ahold of us. And so scripture is very clear that, that we are gonna walk in the same path of Jesus. So that means we're also gonna bear scars on our lives as well. Some of us will bear scars on our physical bodies, but we're all gonna bear scars on our souls. So each time we choose to forgive when someone has wounded us, that's gonna leave a mark on us. That's gonna leave a scar because it, it's hard to forgive when you've been offended. Each time we choose to walk the way of humility or love for someone else, our flesh does not want to live that way. And so we are gonna take on the wound of choosing to go low when everything in us wants to fight for our own rights.

Ivelisse Page:

You know, that's so beautiful. I have many scars, uh, physical scars from, you know, colon resections to liver surgeries, to endometrial cancer surgeries. I mean, all these scars. And when I used to look at my abdomen, I used to think, oh my gosh, it's so ugly. I need to figure out a way to fix this. And, and really the enemy used it as a way to make me feel down and discouraged and I'll never forget, my sister-in-law shared exactly what you said, and she said, Ivelisse. She goes, the enemy's trying to use that to discourage you and making you think that it's ugly, but you need to see it as, what God allowed you to overcome and you crushed the enemy when you overcame a diagnosis that everyone said you would not. Yes. And so when you see those scars, may it serve as a reminder of the goodness of God and what he allowed you to overcome. And ever since that day, it brings my hair's, my arms raised, because it just reminds me, yes Lord, this is something that I will never forget. And I'll always remember how good you were through me, through the hardest times of my life. Yeah. So scars can be beautiful.

Neil Broere:

That's true. I believe so. A hundred percent. I believe scars in the kingdom of God are beautiful because our savior has scars. I wanna look like him and if he has scars, whatever it takes, I wanna look like him.

Ivelisse Page:

Yes. Yes. What do you think obedience looks like when your body is too weak to do much of anything? Do you think it's possible to be so faithful in the middle of physical suffering when you just don't feel like you can do much?

Neil Broere:

That's a great question. I think so. Everything in the kingdom begins first with a heart posture, and then it becomes walked out. So the obedience that first has to happen in our heart. And if our body is, is in a place of being incapacitated and you can't move to the Middle East to be a missionary or, you know, start a feeding program for the homeless in your city. Giving him your yes in your heart first is an act of worship. He receives that as worship. So I, I don't believe it's, we may have measures of, wow, they did that for Jesus. That's amazing. To Jesus, it's all, what's the posture of your heart? You, you may have moved around the world and and told Muslims about Jesus or whatever it might be, but your heart might still be prideful. You may still want everyone to know what you did. Jesus is not gonna receive that as worship, but you sitting in your bed worshiping him, meeting him in prayer, trusting him through those difficulties, giving him your yes, day after day after day, that could become even more powerful than the foreign missionary or the traveling evangelist in Jesus' eyes.

Ivelisse Page:

Hmm. Yeah, I, I agree. And I think that no matter where we are in our lives, I think whether we are a mom who's homeschooling, or whether we are in the business world, or whether we're just active in our community, or even, like you said, laying in that bed, um, I remember those were the sweetest times where I just, the only thing I could do was pray. And so I feel like when we see our lives through that kingdom lens God really allows us to see a greater picture than what we see right in front of us. So I love that you share that.

Neil Broere:

My wife Lindsey, when we lived in Iraq, there's challenges that women live through in a, in a cul culture like that. And so Lindsey didn't have the same freedoms that I did to go out and minister or to, you know, share the gospel on the streets or participate even in prayer meetings. There were some times where she was in home, in the house with the kids for days on end, and sometimes multiple weeks without doing anything but just going to the corner store. And she, the first couple of years, she really wrestled with God. Lord, I, I'm here to do great things for you. Why am I stuck in this house? And the Lord showed her, your great things are not the same as my great things. Now my definition of great things is sometimes you just worshiping me over that sink full of dishes. Or changing diapers or praying for your husband as he goes into these places. So what, what he receives as worship is often very different from what we would consider worship.

Ivelisse Page:

Hmm. Yes. So in your darkest moments, what helped you to trust God?'cause I know people are sitting in there thinking, gosh, he has so much faith and I don't have that. And so when, when you had those darkest moments, even when you didn't feel him or understand what he was doing, what helped you to trust in him?

Neil Broere:

My calling testimonies from the past. So remembering, forcing myself to remember the faithfulness of God in my own life, recalling testimonies from others' lives. I love reading biographies of ones who've gone before us, like the Reese Howells and the Hudson Taylors, and, you know, reading these stories of, of how God was faithful to others. But then also just standing on faith. You know David, he writes in the Psalms, bless the Lord, oh my soul! He's, it's as if he's speaking to himself. No, I'm commanding my soul right now to bless the Lord, even though everything around me disagrees with my faith, I'm choosing to stand on faith and say, God is good. God is faithful. Even when I'm faithless. He's faithful. I know he's always good and he's never let me down. Not once. I've been in some of the most dangerous situations. I've been in the most uncomfortable situations. We've ex, our family has experienced threats of foreclosure, poverty. We've experienced it all. And I can assure you he has never let us down. And it's not like I've walked through these things as some, uh, superhero of faith. There's been times where I'm scratching my head thinking, I have no idea how he's gonna get us out of this one. Maybe we finally found the occasion where God doesn't come through, and every single time it comes through.

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Ivelisse Page:

Mm. That's awesome. How can a cancer patient begin to believe that their story, even the painful parts, can still be redemptive and used by God?

Neil Broere:

Mm, it's a great question. My father, he had cancer and now he's doing great, praise God. But I remember my father asking these questions with me and us wrestling through these things and when someone is suffering, you can either choose to suffer well or you can choose to suffer with a harsh heart. Uh, we, we get to determine the attitude that we're walking through our situation with, whether that's cancer or poverty or whatever it might be. And, how we choose to walk through that, that difficult season determines the testimony that we're speaking to those around us about who God is. So we, we get to be a witness of who Jesus is based on how we navigate our, our difficulty. And you know, sometimes it is, obviously, it is difficult to walk through physical sickness in your body. But I think if we can remember that the world is watching, not only to see how we, how we walk through those high moments, but also through those low moments, and that it can be just as much of a, a powerful witness to the world of who Jesus is, how we walk through our seasons of suffering.

Ivelisse Page:

What's the verse? Um, it's fleeting to me right now, but it just says whether I live or die, you know? Yeah. It's like a, i I win, you know? I win. Yeah. What's that?

Neil Broere:

Yeah, it's Philippians. Paul says, God will be glorified in my body by life or by death. Yes. Yeah.

Ivelisse Page:

And so I, I feel like, um. You know, when we have a kingdom perspective, we're living our lives today knowing, okay, Lord, what is my purpose for today? And it just may be to talk to someone who, uh, needs encouragement. If you are walking through cancer and, you know, just think about those who have gone before you said, you know, remember the past and remember those who've come before you. I know when I was going through cancer, I found those individuals who were on the other side, and it just gave me such hope to know that if God could heal them, then he could heal me too. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So he can be that for those people, um, who are feeling hopeless no matter what they're, they're dealing with in their lives. And you've seen suffering up close on the mission field, you know, how has that experience helped you to speak hope to those who are suffering?

Neil Broere:

Yeah. One of the things that we saw, when we lived in Iraq, we were there from the beginning of 2016 to the end of 2021. It was during the height of ISIS. We lived about an hour away from where ISIS was in Mosul. And a lot of the work that we did in those first few years was in refugee camps and the things that these people had lived through the, the atrocities, just the, the, the wickedness that they had experienced from the hands of ISIS. It was awful. And I remember, I remember feeling so insufficient to comfort them in those moments. Because I'm from America. We, I grew up in comfort. I and the moment's notice, I can get on an airplane and I can go back to America. These people are stuck in a situation and there's no way out. And I remember thinking, Lord, how do I comfort somebody who's in the midst of such trial right now? And that's when he spoke to me about Job. Don't give them answers. Don't try to, don't try to give them, uh, fancy words. Sometimes don't even worry about pointing'em to the right Bible verse. Just sit with them. Let them know that they're not alone, and your presence there, letting them know they're not alone is a witness that I'm with them and they're not alone because I'm here too.

Ivelisse Page:

Mm. Yeah. Empathy is such a powerful tool in God's kingdom I believe in understanding, listening, curiosity, affirming, and I think that that is such an important role that we could all do. You know, I, I always, uh, used to tell my kids when they're little, God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason, so we should listen more than we speak. It's true. So I feel like that that is, um, just such a powerful testimony. So in the last few minutes, um, what else could you share about your book that you feel would be meaningful for those who are listening today?

Neil Broere:

Well, one of the reasons that I wanted to put this book together was I wanted to reframe the narrative on suffering. And reassure people who are walking through difficult situations that they haven't missed God. God hasn't missed them. This is actually what we signed up for when we said yes to Jesus. You know, I'm thinking of what Peter says in 1 Peter 4. Don't be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come upon you to the degree that you fellowship with him in his sufferings, actually, rejoice. James says right at the beginning of his letter, the second verse, James says, count it all joy brothers, when you fall into various trials, knowing that those trials actually produce something in you, the language that he uses here is fascinating, that perfects you and makes you complete. So that tells me that there's something about the difficulty and the suffering that has the power to make us complete. So if I never experienced suffering, that tells me I'm incomplete. Jesus was very clear when he gave us the invitation to follow him. If you wanna come after me, there's actually a cross with your name on it. I want you to pick that up and walk with me. This wasn't in fine print. This is actually in bold letters on top of the contract. My purpose in writing the book was to, to shed light on something that can be a big, scary monster and say, look, this is, this is a part of following Jesus, and if it's a part of his plan for us, then it's for our good. Everything he does is love, and everything he does is for our good and for his glory.

Ivelisse Page:

Well, Neil, thank you so much for writing this book. Again, the book is Obedience, Suffering Reward. We will put a link in our show notes for you all to go and purchase this book. You will be inspired and encouraged to live a life that honors the Lord and even through the hard times to understand the purpose in it while walking through something difficult. So thank you for writing it. Thank you for taking the time to join us today for this conversation.

Neil Broere:

Oh, you're welcome, Ivelisse. It was my honor. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Ivelisse Page:

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